November 12, 2008
Twenty-two months later, we finally find ourselves on the other side
of this epic campaign, during which nothing less was at stake than the immediate future of the United States as we know it. We can all breathe a sigh of relief - our special brand of democracy, although far from perfect, remains capable of delivering regime change without a bloody revolution or a messy coup d'etat. And, although our physical and economic infrastructure is crashing down around our ears, at least we finally have a chief executive that is willing to listen to we, the people. Between now and Inauguration Day, TSP will offer some thoughts on the way forward for the fledgling Obama administration and the country in general. If you have suggestions in this regard, don't just send them to Obama - send them to TSP as well and we'll post them for discussion. Any subject relevant to the future vitality of the U.S. is fair game.
I know that, most likely, President Obama will not solve every problem; there's just too many piled up for any one person to get through. I am confident that, as a smart man, he will work to get the country on the right road. Whenever I hear him give an interview (like the 60 minutes one from last night), for the first time, I actually look up to a politician. In my 32 years, I have never had so much admiration for a President (elect). It's one thing to be a good politician, but it's another story to combine that with being a good person.
As usual, I agree that Obama and we have to think big as we move ahead with putting the country on track again for ourselves and our children. If you are looking for concrete ideas on how we do this, I recommend a pleasurable read in Barbara Kingsolver's Animal, Vegetable, Miracle. Kingsolver has been writing for years but was plummeted onto the national seen by The Poisonwood Bible being on Oprah's book list.
November 03, 2008
Parting Shots
Fellow Systocrats:
Break out your EV projectors and your miniature American flags - election day is finally here! As we all get ready to hit the polls, check out these suggested responses to some of the more nefarious right-wing talking points that you may encounter at the polls tomorrow.
1. OBAMA WANTS TO "REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH:" What's wrong with redistributing the wealth? Every government and every economic model designed by humankind "redistributes" resources in one way or another, including laissez-faire capitalism. Over the last eight years, the wealth of the middle class has been accelerated upward and "redistributed" to the upper class by various means, most notably (at least for me) the Iraq war, which diverted gazillions of our tax dollars into the hands of wealthy private corporations with ties to the Bush administration. Maybe instead of "redistributing" the wealth to these rich turkeys, we could spread some of it around for the benefit of the other 99% of America's citizens. Just an idea . . .
2. OBAMA IS A SOCIALIST: Obama has repeatedly stated, both in his book The Audacity of Hope and on the campaign trail over the last two years, that he is a firm believer in the free market. At worst, that makes him an advocate of a mixed economy, i.e. something akin to the tenuous compromise between outright socialism and laissez-faire capitalism that has persisted since FDR's New Deal.
Obama is no more a socialist than Bill Clinton. Furthermore (I have to say this), liberal economic policies get a bad rap in this country, mostly because wealthy Americans have been working hard to stigmatize these policies for generations so that they can hold on to as much of their wealth as possible. The fact is that most of the countries that rank higher than the U.S. on the Human Development Index have much more aggressively liberal economic policies than the U.S. In other words, these are countries "in which people can [better] develop their full potential and lead productive, creative lives in accord with their needs and interests." Think about it.
3. OBAMA WANTS TO RAISE TAXES: Obama's proposed tax plan cuts taxes for 95% of working families in this country. Period.
4. OBAMA IS A MUSLIM: He's not. Furthermore, if you think that being a Muslim is unacceptable in and of itself, congratulations! You are a victim of the Bush/Cheney fear-propaganda machine, and somewhat of a bigot. Oh, and by the way, he's not a Muslim.
5. DUBYA DIDN'T RUIN OUR ECONOMY, JIMMY CARTER DID: The obvious implication here is that Democrats in the White House will screw things up. This is a new one for me - just heard it tonight at my local pizza shop while picking up dinner. JIMMY CARTER? ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME???
I haven't heard that crap since Reagan ran for office in 1980. The truth is that Carter dealt with out-of-control inflation caused by deficit spending during the Vietnam War and the OPEC oil crisis of 1973. You might recall the OPEC crisis. Yeah, that's the event that unraveled Keynesian economic theory, which had held sway since the 1930s, by demonstrating that the internal controls on our economy instituted by the New Deal were inadequate to remedy the effects of a global economic crisis. Not Jimmy Carter's fault by a long shot.
6. OBAMA'S TAX PLAN WILL PUT SMALL BUSINESSES OUT OF BUSINESS: Obama proposes a return to Clinton-era tax rates, with a slight tax hike for small business owners making over $250,000. McCain claims that this will result in increased taxes for the majority of small business owners. Simply not true - most small business owners would see no change at all in their taxes, and many would see a tax cut.
7. OBAMA PALS AROUND WITH TERRORISTS: BILL AYERS?? YES HE WAS A TERRORIST IN THE 60s WHEN OBAMA WAS A SMALL CHILD! OBAMA KNOWS THE RECENT, RELEVANT INCARNATION OF MR. AYERS. YOU KNOW, THE RESPECTED UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS PROFESSOR AND CHICAGO'S 1997 CITIZEN OF THE YEAR.
BY THE WAY, DOESN'T MCCAIN PAL AROUND WITH G. GORDON LIBBY? NOW THERE'S A TERRORIST FOR YOU!! (Okay, I'll stop yelling . . .).
8. OBAMA WANTS TO "CONCEDE DEFEAT IN IRAQ:" Absolute, utter nonsense. McCain should have learned from his experience in Vietnam that you cannot defeat an enemy that you cannot find. After Vietnam, no military force facing the awesome might of the U.S. is ever going to present itself on the battlefield to be conveniently annihilated. In Vietnam, we learned the hard way that it is possible for a disciplined guerilla force to defeat a military superpower, but that it's nearly impossible for the reverse to occur. That's why we paid Osama Bin Laden to draw the USSR into a Vietnam-like quagmire in Afghanistan, and that's why even General Petraeus won't talk about Iraq in terms of "victory" or "defeat."
9. OBAMA HAS THE MOST LIBERAL VOTING RECORD IN THE SENATE: What does that even mean? Seriously? Can anyone explain what this means in objective terms?
ONE FINAL NOTE - AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, YOU HAVE A FUNDAMENTAL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO VOTE, SO DON'T TAKE ANY CRAP AT THE POLLS!!!
Call 1-866-OURVOTE to report any irregularities at the polls.
To report voting issues to the media, call 1-877-GOCNN08.
October 31, 2008
The "Real" America on Halloween
Fellow Systocrats:
There's been a lot of talk lately about the "real America" and "real Americans." This year, I caught a glimpse of what the "real America" actually looks like on Halloween:
This is Cedar Street in tiny Belfast, Maine, where any given house welcomed upwards of 800 to 1000 trick-or-treaters. As you can see from these pictures, this public Halloween festival of sorts started before the sun went down and continued well into the evening, with lines of well-mannered, costumed youths consistently extending 25 or 30 feet from our well-provisioned porch, all the way into the street and beyond. I had never seen trick-or-treating quite like this before, and I'm betting you haven't either, unless you live in Salem, Massachusetts, the Halloween capital of the world.
Personally, I had thought that real trick-or-treating was a dying tradition in this country, replaced by more manageable Halloween parties and the like. In the middle class New Jersey suburb I grew up in, wholesale trick-or-treating passed into memory long ago, after several Halloween candy incidents in the eighties (poison, razor blades, etc. found inside treats). The local matriarchs decided that it was just too dangerous and, with few exceptions, shut the practice down. In other words, people in many communities decided that they could no longer trust their neighbors to dispense safe treats.
Scenes like this one are hard to find in the United States nowadays, for the same reason - fear of one's neighbor.
As a Systocrat, I would like to see the kind of community-oriented sentiment revealed by these pictures in every city and town in America. I would like to see Americans start to trust each other again. But this kind of unity and trust can never occur when people are constantly being exhorted by our political "leaders" to fear each other. For example, suppose you had one of those Muslim "terrorists" living in your neighborhood? What if people in your community are of a different ethnicity or have different political views? Worst of all, what if you were living next to someone who wasn't a "real American," whatever the hell that means?
Halloween in Belfast epitomizes what's at stake in this election - harmony vs. division, community vs. factionalism. As a citizen of this country, you must ask yourself, "what kind of America do I want to live in?" Personally, I want to live in an America where I don't fear my neighbor, my neighbor doesn't fear me, and where we are not encouraged by our political leaders to be intolerant of fellow citizens who see things differently than we do.
I urge any remaining undecided voters out there to consider their vote carefully in light of these considerations. Which candidate seeks unity, and which candidate has run a campaign premised on the politics of division and distraction? Get the facts, and vote on Tuesday.
To obtain the location of your local polling place, click here.
October 30, 2008
Barack Obama for President
Fellow Systocrats:
The Systocrat Papers is pleased to announce its endorsement of Barack Obama for President of the United States. At this critical juncture in American history, a vote for Senator Obama is nothing less than a vote of confidence in the power of the American people to unite in common purpose in order to move this country forward. A vote for Senator Obama also constitutes an emphatic rejection of the divisive, failed agendas of the Bush administration, which is almost exclusively responsible for the sorry state of affairs in which this country finds itself at present.
Earlier this year, I read Senator Obama's second book, The Audacity of Hope. I found this insightful passage in the first few pages:
Not only did my encounters with voters confirm the fundamental decency of the American people, they also reminded me that at the core of the American experience are a set of ideals that continue to stir our collective conscience; a common set of values that bind us together despite our differences; a running thread of hope that makes our improbable experiment in democracy work.
Senator Obama went on to discuss the need to unite the American people in common purpose:
I recognize the risks of talking this way. In an era of globalization and dizzying technological change, cutthroat politics and unremitting culture wars, we don't even seem to possess a shared language with which to discuss our ideals, much less the tools to arrive at some rough consensus about how, as a nation, we might work together to bring these ideals about . . . .
My argument, however, is that we have no choice. You don't need a poll to know that the vast majority of Americans - Republican, Democrat and independent - are weary of the dead zone that politics has become, in which narrow interests vie for advantage and ideological minorities seek to impose their own versions of absolute truth. Whether we're from red states or blue states, we feel in our gut the lack of honesty, rigor, and common sense in our policy debates, and dislike what appears to be a continuous menu of false or cramped choices. Religious or secular, black, white or brown, we sense - correctly, that the nation's most significant challenges are being ignored, and that if we don't change course soon, we may be the first generation in a very long time that leaves behind a weaker and more fractured America than the one that we inherited. Perhaps more than any other time in our recent history, we need a new kind of politics, one that can excavate and build upon those shared understandings that pull us together as Americans.
Obama's message of unity, which we have heard him iterate in countless ways on the campaign trail over the last two years, echoes a universal truth that applies to the entirety of existence on this crude material plane - that all things are fundamentally interconnected and interdependent. We are all in this together, and what happens to one of us happens to all of us.
This is not just empty rhetoric. In a personal sense, what this means is that if a fellow citizen can suffer a wrong today, you can be wronged under the same circumstances tomorrow. For example, once our government decides to compromise the civil liberties of one person, the civil liberties of all are at risk. Moreover, no one seeking broader, concrete examples of the interdependency of Earth's citizenry need look any further than the current economic crisis, which started with a relatively small number of greedy, irresponsible parties here in the United States and quickly fanned out to cripple the global economy. Global warming is another ready example - the greenhouse effect threatens the existence of many forms of life in every sector of the planet, irrespective of the fact that this issue has been perpetuated by a subset of the entire population. The systematic pollution of our air and oceans also exemplifies this principle in action - it is indisputable that we depend on the rest of humankind to safeguard the integrity of these two components of our biosphere so that conditions conducive to the perpetuation of life on this planet continue to exist.
The unassailable truth of the matter is that many of the immediate problems facing humankind cannot be solved unless we develop the capacity to work in concert with disparate factions to achieve and implement solutions. For example, anything less than a global consensus to keep our oceans clean will likely render any effort in this regard futile. We have reached a stage in our development as a species where it has become clear that we must move forward together or not at all.
The reality of today's globally interconnected society has conclusively rendered the politics of division obsolete - the only real function of divisive politics is to keep ordinary people at each others throats in front of the halls of power while the real criminals enter from the rear, stage a quiet coup d'etat and surreptitiously arrange things to suit their own selfish ends.
The Bush administration executed this strategy to perfection over the last eight years, skillfully parlaying our fears in the aftermath of 9/11 into a misguided war on the Iraqi people. As it turns out, the Iraq War was really nothing more than a front to funnel billions of our tax dollars into private hands through lucrative, cost-plus, no-bid contracts awarded to defense and reconstruction contractors fortunate enough to have ties to the Bush administration. During this sustained looting of our tax coffers, the Bush administration utilized various devices to distract and otherwise keep the American electorate in line. The creation of a fear index, otherwise known as the Homeland Security Advisory System, which perpetually modulates between "Elevated" and "High" alert levels, is one such device.
The deliberate act of demonizing every single Muslim in the world by labeling adherents of the mainstream Muslim faith "terrorists" is another. Thanks to President Bush, the stigma against Muslims in this country is so strong that a presidential candidate dare not risk even the appearance of being in any way affiliated with this faith, a ridiculous state of affairs given the millions of fine, patriotic Muslim-American citizens. Former Secretary of State Colin Powell recently pointed out the absurdity of the Muslim situation - this is indeed a shameful chapter in the history of a country that, at least in theory, purports to offer equal rights to all.
After eight years of Bush, the country is so divided that most rational discourse between people of different views has ceased. In the resulting bilateral vacuum, unsupportable viewpoints are transformed into unchallenged, and over time, unchallengeable dogma. While many of us insist on defending indefensible positions and otherwise bicker amongst ourselves, our markets have been crippled, our children are not being educated, our jobs are being shipped overseas or otherwise eliminated and we are fighting wars on three fronts (if you count the ill-named "war on terror" as a separate front). If we cannot even discuss these issues in a rational way with our neighbors, who may hold different views, we cannot reach consensus and move forward in any meaningful way.
I don't know about you, but I'm sick and tired of the current state of affairs. Like Senator Obama, I'm absolutely convinced that we are more alike than we are different, and that if we can find a way to engage in rational discourse with people we disagree with, we'll find that we're not as far apart as we think we are. For example, I have a neighbor who is a fiscal conservative. We frequently argue the relative merits of various economic policies and philosophies, but when the dogma and the talking points are dispensed with, in many instances we are able to reach consensus. For example, although we stand on opposite ends of the fiscal spectrum in terms of ideology, we both agree that if people truly cannot support themselves, despite their best efforts to do so, the government should provide assistance to these people. We also agree that people who are capable of working should be forced to do so in lieu of receiving a government handout. To cite another example, although we may disagree about the justification for the Iraq war, I think we can all agree that our troops deserve to be fully and properly equipped before they are sent to the front lines, and that injured soldiers are entitled to the finest, most comprehensive medical care that we can provide, in contrast to the neglect and frustration that our troops experienced at Walter Reed Medical Center.
If you agree that rational dialogue and real consensus are necessary elements in crafting solutions to today's problems, Senator Obama is your man. John McCain, once an honorable man, and a man who deserves our respect for his years of dedicated military service to this country, has lost his moral compass in his quest for the White House and now seeks to rule by any means necessary. His campaign has made the conscious and deliberate decision to focus on the politics of division to make up for the lack of anything remotely resembling a cohesive campaign strategy. Instead of focusing on the issues and/or saying anything positive about his candidacy, McCain has decided to promote the idea that Obama is "different," and that therefore we should fear him. After all, Obama IS different . . . He's black. He pals around with terrorists. He'll raise taxes and increase the size of government. He's a Muslim. He's a socialist. He's a communist. He pals around with an anti-white preacher. He's had dinner with members of the PLO.
Here's a thought - what we really should fear is a man who has done everything in his power to align himself with the Bush administration over the last three years, an administration that tricked us into a needless war, used that war as a means to steal billions of dollars from us, and in the process murdered thousands of U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians. What we should really fear is a man who seeks power for its own sake and is willing to use ugly, dishonest, divisive tactics to achieve this dubious end. John McCain will not lead us forward. He will keep us right where we are - locked in a tight downward spiral towards oblivion.
I'm voting for Senator Obama because I'm tired of the politics of division, and because I want to see liberals and conservatives come together, dispense with the dogma and the talking points, and work in concert to achieve consensus and make this country and the world a better place.
I'm voting for Senator Obama because a vote for him is a vote for all of us.
To obtain the location of your local polling place, click here.
October 17, 2008
Know Thy Neighbor - The Race For The White House Touches Down In My Backyard
Fellow Systocrats:
On Friday, I encountered this provocative billboard not far from my home:
I received a picture of this billboard on my cell phone Friday afternoon and not surprisingly, I found myself standing in front of it a few hours later. I was not alone - a young man arrived a minute or two after I did, also drawn to this rather unique display of partisanship in an otherwise sleepy town. As it turned out, both of us had dead batteries in our cameras, and as we briefly commiserated about this, our host made his appearance.
Robert Horr appears to be a reasonably fit gentleman in his early to mid fifties, maybe six feet tall or so, with grizzled hair and mustache. He greeted us in faded pants, a black t-shirt bearing a military slogan and workboots. Mr. Horr declined to be photographed for this interview, recognizing that "this sign will bring hate," although apparently I had just missed a television crew from the local news station.
During our conversation, Mr. Horr declared himself a "Constitutionalist" ("it means what it says") and an "NRA member who votes" (per another sign prominently displayed in the yard). Although he has never served in the military, two of his sons have enlisted (although he declined to say where or in what branch they were serving). The sun was going down, and Mr. Horr bade us welcome even as he busied himself setting up industrial strength spotlights to illuminate the billboard for evening motorists. At length, he approached and I asked him if he had created the billboard himself. He did not - the billboard represents the work of a talented artist-for-hire. I then explained who I was (blogger, Obama supporter, etc) and hinted that he might be a McCain supporter. Mr. Horr shook his head vigorously.
"This sign is neutral," he insisted. "I'm just trying to get the facts out there about these two candidates. If something about this sign makes you nervous, perhaps you should reconsider your vote." Later, in response to a direct question from the young man who witnessed our conversation, Mr. Horr would refuse to divulge who he was voting for.
I assured him that the sign didn't make me nervous and questioned his claim of neutrality, pointing out that on the one hand, a young McCain was featured in military gear, which might be appropriate given that McCain had a rather complete career as a Navy pilot. On the other hand, the Obama rendering was drawn from a picture of Obama in traditional African garb during a visit to Kenya in 2006, an outfit that he wore maybe a day or two in his entire life. Why choose to display this particular image?
"That's his heritage," Mr. Horr explained. "Obama was born in Africa, you know." At some point during our interview, I asked him if Obama was a Muslim. Mr. Horr said that he didn't know, but wasn't ready to take me at my word when I told him that Obama was not an adherent of the Muslim faith. "I don't know what's in his heart . . . " he said with hands apologetically raised, adding for good measure that "we don't really know anything about Barack Obama." This last, despite the fact that Obama has been continually and ruthlessly vetted during the two years that he's been on the national campaign trail. I never did get around to asking Mr. Horr what's wrong with Muslims in general.
Mr. Horr also argued that the images on the billboard were not misleading images of the candidates because they are based on actual photos.
Some of you will recall that this picture first surfaced in late February, in advance of important primaries in Texas and Ohio. The Drudge Report broke the story, claiming that the photo had been released by the Clinton campaign, which didn't deny releasing it, but instead insisted that there was nothing misleading or provocative about it. By contrast, Obama's campaign characterized the photo as an attempt to paint Obama as an anti-American Muslim, Obama's campaign manager describing it as the "most shameful, offensive fear-mongering we've seen from either side in this campaign." Obama himself told a Dallas radio station that "the notion that [the Clinton campaign] would try to use this to imply in some way that I'm foreign, I think is, you know, unfortunate."
Now, less than three weeks away from election day, this photo has resurfaced in my backyard, of all places.
I assurred Mr. Horr that Obama was not born in Africa, but in Hawaii. Mr. Horr continued to insist that not only was Obama born in Africa, but that he spent the first 12 years of his life there and went to "school" in Kenya. I again insisted that Obama spent most of his childhood in Hawaii, but Mr. Horr was having none of it.
Instructing me to "get the facts," Mr. Horr reminded me that Obama may not be qualified to be president of the United States, citing a pending lawsuit to get to the bottom of the Obama birth certificate situation. I presume that he was referring to the lawsuit filed in the federal court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania by disgruntled Hillary Clinton supporter Phillip J. Berg, Esq. who maintains that under the Constitution, Obama is not qualified to be president because he was: 1. born in Kenya, not Hawaii, and 2. that even if Obama was born in Hawaii, he renounced his American citizenship by moving to Indonesia with his mother as a child. The Obama campaign, together with the DNC has filed a motion to dismiss this complaint on the same grounds for which a similar complaint against McCain was dismissed a few months ago - that Mr. Berg lacks legal standing to maintain suit, as he has not alleged that he will be personally injured by Obama's candidacy in any legally cognizable fashion. No decision yet on the motion to dismiss, but you can view the entire case docket here.
In terms of Mr. Berg's qualifications as a lawyer, a brief internet search turned up this opinion by the Honorable Curtis Joyner of the very court in which Berg filed his controversial lawsuit. In this 2005 Order, the Court affirmed the imposition of sanctions against Mr. Berg, noting that Mr. Berg had filed a complaint "completely devoid of any basis in fact or law." Joyner wasn't finished with Berg, however:
Mr. Berg's conduct . . . is the reason [court rules imposing sanctions on lawyers for frivolous conduct] were implemented. Other attorneys should look to Mr. Berg's actions as a blueprint for what not to do when attempting to effectively and honorably perform the duties of the legal profession. This Court has grown weary of Mr. Berg's continuous and brazen disrespect towards this Court and his own clients. Mr. Berg's actions . . . serve to divert judicial resources from legitimate matters and this Court cannot, in good conscience, allow this conduct to go unpunished.
So much for Mr. Berg.
Mr. Horr went on to say that because Obama's parents were not American citizens at the time he was born, Obama cannot satisfy the qualifications for president set forth in Article II of the Constitution. Art II provides as follows:
No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.
By his remarks, I presume that Mr. Horr is of the opinion that Obama is neither a "natural born Citizen" nor a "Citizen of the United States," as required by Article II. Certainly some rather convoluted arguments in support of this idea were making their way around the Internet last summer. However under the 14th Amendment ("Citizenship rights"), all persons born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction are citizens of the United States. Therefore, even if both of Obama's parents were non-citizens, Obama would still be a U.S. citizen by virtue of his birth in Hawaii.
With respect to the Ronald Reagan quote on his billboard, Mr. Horr could not identify the context in which Reagan made these remarks. With a minimal amount of digging around, I did find Mr. Horr's Biden and Reagan quotes cited a couple of lines away from each other in an article entitled "Comrade Barack Hussein Obama" on the Patriot Post website. The Post styles itself the "Internet Journal of the conservative revolution" and defines its mission as follows:
The Patriot Post believes that individual liberty, the restoration of constitutional limits on government and the judiciary, and the promotion of free enterprise, national defense and traditional American values can only be secured through the exercise of individual rights and responsibilities as ordained by God and established by our nation's Founders in our Declaration of Independence and its subordinate exposition, our Republic's Constitution.
Sounds about right to me - given the proximity of the quotes in the cited Post article and the content featured on this website, I'm guessing Mr. Horr found the text for his billboard here.
Update: since the initial publication of this story, Mr. Horr himself has written in to say that the Reagan quote came from an address at the Citadel. See his comment below. He didn't say whether he reads the Patriot Post or not.
Returning to the context in which Reagan made the above-quoted statement, Governor Palin used it in her closing remarks at the VP debate, only to have the liberal media quickly point out that "Reagan was not warning about a general lack of vigilance about freedom, he was warning what would happen if Medicare was enacted." Looks like Palin, The Patriot Post and now Mr. Horr have all taken this quote out of context.
In all fairness to Mr. Horr, I should say that throughout our interview, he was reasonably friendly and polite, despite our profound disagreements re: the candidates, and he also declared his willingness to discuss his views openly with anyone who might seek him out, which is what American politics are supposed to be all about. I should also mention that at least three or four cars signaled their approval by some combination of honking their horns and/or giving Mr. Horr the thumbs-up as they drove by.
One final note - beware to those who would visit ill-will upon Mr. Horr and his sign. Mr. Horr made it clear to me that although he's not looking for trouble, he will "defend his property if necessary."
October 15, 2008
Live-Blogging the Final Presidential Debate!!
Fellow Systocrats:
WELCOME TO OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE THIRD PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!
TD: Good evening, and welcome to our live coverage of the last presidential debate. Tonight, I'll be joined in the virtual TSP studio by Paddy O and Mary J, who will provide expert political commentary as events unfold. If you'd like to weigh in during the debate, email me at td@systocracy.com.
Here's my take on tonight's event. The stakes are higher than ever for John McCain. At 72, he must be coming to terms with the fact that his last conceivable bid for the presidency now stands on the brink of failure. According to the most accurate projections available to us, if the election were held today, Senator Obama would claim over 360 electoral votes(!), and Obama is also holding a significant advantage among early voters in swing states. McCain, ever the fighter, has vowed to "whip Obama's [ass]" tonight in order to get back into this race, but he'll need more than mere bravado to turn the tide in his direction. The McCain campaign needs a clear, well-conceived strategy to counter Obama's gathering strength in these final weeks, which is something that's been lacking since the beginning of McCain's presidential run.
Mary J: Well TD, it probably goes without saying that tonight's debate is important for McCain. With his numbers declining in just about every poll, it is more important than ever that he come off as uber-confident. If he can pull that off and look a lot less tired that he has of late, he'll provide assurance to those undecided voters that he can work well under pressure and that he'll make a fine President.
Those same undecideds will be watching Obama as well. Any big snafus on Obama's part are going to give credence to McCain's arguments that Obama is just a short-term superstar with no experience. My money is on Obama who is always cool under fire, confident and smart. That's just what America is looking for after all these years with W looking scared of his shadow. Even among those of us who have already decided who to vote for, there's nothing like a good debate, and I think folks in my true-blue state are looking forward to tonight's event.
Paddy O: IT'S OVER!! Tonite is nothing but an afterthought. If Obama loses this election he'll go down in history with the Yankees as the biggest choke jobs.
I was trying to think of a theme for this opening but there were really too many to choose from including "STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES" for McCain, his campaign and Sarah Palin's pathetic interview answers. His campaign, as Tom Cruise said in A Few Good Men is GALACTICALLY STUPID!!!!! Not once have they ever even attempted to define Obama. You don't define your opponent by he's liberal once or twice in debates. You do it INCESSANTLY, 500,000 times on commericals, TV appearances etc. This campaign is clearly just as bad as Gore's and Kerry's. Gore foolishly ran away from Clinton, Kerry ran a cowardly campaign by refusing to address the negative perceptions of him and McCain quite simply it seems has no plan; it's been FUBAR since he won the nomination. It certainly has been non-confrontational. Sure he's lobBed a few attacks the last week - BIG FRIGGEN DEAL!! He's let softball after softball pass without any mention. He should have been running Ayers commericals when there were 7-8 primaries left in the Dem nomination process AFTER Obama had the nomination locked up. He should have been SCREAMING that he's the most liberal member of the Senate from day one. He should have had Tony Rezko ads running non-stop in Ohio, PA and Mich. He hasn't once brought up the clings to guns and religion remark, he hasn't once brought up the fact Obama broke his word on campaign funding. He hasn't once mentioned Barney Frank's and several Dems defense of Fannie/Freddie. He hasn't once brought up the fact that Obama's tax plan mirrors Clinton's and Clinton RAISED taxes. He hasn't once brought up Rev. Wright. He hasn't once brought up Chris Dodd's KICKBACK from Fannie/Freddie in a below market home loan.
Quite frankly, his campaign, is two things, PATHETIC and for lack of a better word, has sucked and therefore, Obama will be the next President, McCain will forever be a footnote to history and regardless of who his handlers are McCain will have nobody to blame but himself for failing to display the intestinal fortitude to confront his opponent on a plethora of areas where his opponent was weak. As Robert Plant said, "Nobody's fault but mine/It's nobody's fault but mine/Try to save my soul tonight/Oh, it's nobody's fault but mine."
TD: And we're off!! Bob is reminding me of Bob Barker (the Price is Right) with that tie. Another awkward embrace at the middle of the stage to start the debate.
TSP fashion consultant Mucho joins us in the studio: What's with all the striped ties?????? Are ugly striped ties a requirement for this event?
TD: McCain just told Obama that it's good to be with him again. Could this be a kinder, gentler McCain?
Paddy O: McCain.....YAAAAWWWWWWWWWNNNNNN. How can he mention Fannie/Freddie and NOT mention Barney Frank and Christopher "kickback" Dodd?
Mary J: I'm going to have to second Paddy O in his sentiments about McCain being weak. He says "friend" a lot (not so far in this debate) and is just too nice. He started out the first debate by telling us that Teddy Kennedy is in the hospital again. Tonight he starts off saying Nancy Reagan is in the hospital. We get it, John, you are a nice guy. I get that but let's see something beyond a nice guy. Get a pair!!!
Special guest Chris J joins us in the studio: This is the last chance for shakes McCain to act like he's got a plan. I hope Scheffer has his goalie gear on, because these two will be all over the place, again. Yeah Bob...hitting them right from the start. We want something else for dinner tonight, not the same old reheated crap.
Special guest Dave L joins us in the studio: I'd like to say a few things about Paddy O's opening. It is too bad for McCain that he ran a more honest campaign then the Republicans would have liked but I think it speaks about his "maverick" personality. He even bucks their regular MO of lying to and scaring the general public. The Ayers issue is actually a non-issue and the "most liberal" rating was from the National Journal for 2007. He was 10th and 16th the previous 2 years.
We should help out those folks who may loose their houses but we have to make sure this price correction to the housing market is maintained. We can't let the bubble get that big again or this will happen all over again.
Paddy O: McCain bringing up the plumber is a good idea.
Mary J: I like that Obama ended the first question by talking about the long term financial issues that we face as a nation. More short term solutions are going to help for just the short term and sink us farther behind as a nation if we don't focus on the bigger picture too. I haven't seen McCain give more than a nod to the long term.
Chris J: Is "Joe" real? Does this mythological "Joe" know how to read and understand tax proposals? Why the hearsay?
Dave L: I wonder if either of them actually knows anything about the other guy's plans. Or if they just believe their own rhetoric.
Paddy O: Another example of McCain not responding correctly. YES, Oil companies are making a fortune . . . but he needs to tell everyone that their profit margins re: percentage over cost is one of the smallest of any industry.
This tit for tat re: Joe the Plumber is the best exchange in the 3 debates.
Chris J: Wow . . . so Obama is now labeled as a tax-raising socialist. Now is the time for Barack to bring up the failure of trickle-down theory.
Special guest Luke-O joins us in the studio: McCain, Obama just explained how Joe the plumber's tax will not go up. How does claiming a second time that Joe is going to get taxed make it true? Are we following the Sarah Palin strategy that merely by repeating something makes it true?
Dave L: McCain doesn't want to raise taxes!! The national debt is beyond belief and every American owes $2000-$10,000 in national debt (depending on who's numbers you believe).
Chris J: Great point about responsibility, but unfortunately, American isn't all about responsibility. If we were, we would not object to higher taxes during a time of war. Sacrifice shouldn't be on some, it should be on all, if the cause is just.
TD: So far, I'm hearing the same old, same old from McCain. A few minutes ago, the tired point about unreasonably high corporate taxes that Obama addressed two debates ago - corporate taxes are high ON PAPER in this country but there are so many loopholes that they are effectively among the lowest corporate tax rates in the world. The same tired points about raising taxes, etc.
Re: Obama's comment a few minutes ago, not sure a "pay-go" policy is going to be possible with the huge deficit and economic recession we'll be dealing with over the next few years.
Mary J: Obama's answers so far are going to appeal to folks who are desperate in this economy. A lot of folks are asking, "how did we get to this point?" and are rethinking the big picture. He keeps hitting home the points about the bigger picture. Nice. Offshore drilling, McCain, is not only a far off solution but just a Band-Aid to help Exxon Mobil. As a country we are headed nowhere but away from an oil-based economy and McCain/Palin won't acknowledge that.
Paddy O: Would it kill either of these guys to come up with an original statement we haven't heard in these first two debates? It's an abomination the lack of thought they put into these things.
TD: Agreed, Paddy, but status quo means victory for Obama. So far, though, this has been a a repeat of the first two debates, I agree.
Chris J: The planetarium projector line is almost as tired looking as the bags under the hobgoblin's (Cindy's) reconstructed eyes.
Luke O: Obama, McCain, answer the question of what you will cut or put off as a result of the 700 billion dollar bailout.
McCain, most of our oil comes from North America, not the Middle East.
Obama, good point that earmarks are only 1/2 of 1% of the overall budget. John, do you understand the big picture? Getting rid of pork barrel spending isnt going to do squat. What are you going to cut?
Paddy O: Well done by Obama on the earmarks. They're small, they suck, we'll fix it, let's move on. However, if McCain had a campaign staff he would know the exact figure because I bet 1/2 of 1% of the US budget is a BOATLOAD of money.
Mucho: I feel violated. I don't want McCain anywhere NEAR me with either a hatchet or a scalpel, that's just a nasty mental picture. By the way . . . what was the question he was supposed to answer? Did he ever get to it?
Mary J: Nice comment by McCain that he's not George Bush. Not a nice comment that he can balance the budget in 4 years. It's what he has to say but it's not believable at all. Clinton had projected surpluses in 8 years and I just don't belive in 4 years they can do it. If they were a king, maybe, but as a President who executes the laws rather than creates them? No. It cannot be done while America fails to weigh in on the Congressional races as much as they do in the Presidential race.
Chris J: I love it when Barack calls McCain on his lies. One question - what is gollum writing while Barack speaks?
Paddy O: Obama is a great counterpuncher. Anytime McCain thinks he scores points, Obama hits him right back.
Chris J: All those words to describe McCain (erratic, etc) were absolutely true.
Dave L: I agree, I think Obama will hold all Americans responsible or at least hold them to a higher standard. Especially if he can hold Congress to a higher standard. He always talks about the poor people pulling themselves up. I think that is important, the gov't clearly isn't going to help anyone but themselves.
Chris J: What an egomaniac. The campaign turned dirty when Barack Obama decided not to give McCain exactly what he wanted (town hall debates), how childish.
TD: Agreed. The way McCain is trying to accuse Obama of running a dirty campaign is a laughable gambit that the voters will definitely see through.
Luke O: Poor McCain. He felt he needed to follow Bush in the years leading up to the election, despite the fact that he disagreed with him. Now
McCain is trying to prove that he is a maverick. He was a maverick, in
some regards, and he may continue to be so, but having sucked up to Bush
the past two years does not give his claim a lot of merit.
Paddy O: FINALLY, McCain brings up Obama's lie regarding financing the campaign...too little--too late for McCain. It should have been his FIRST commercial.
Obama's avoiding this question better than Palin avoided questions.
Mary J: Nice. “I don’t mind being attacked for the next three weeks.” Good answers by Obama. I understand that McCain’s handlers told him to be tougher but he’s coming off as a whiny sore loser. And I liked this guy a couple of years ago.
Mucho: . . . and the other shoe is on it's way down. Obama is coming across as a calm cool collected individual and John is erratic, interrupting, and making faces when he is faced with challenges from the left. And with perfect timing, here comes the question regarding "taking he high road" and the "say it to my face!" demand we all heard in 3rd grade.
It's like mediating a grade school fight between two bullies. "you didn't say you were sorry and now I hate you!" (roughly translated) and the rebuttal "look, you started it and I wanna talk about what were supposed to be talking about. Important stuff like how right I am and what an old out of touch tool you are" (again, I may have lost a few key points in translation, but hey I figure it's good enough for government work).
Dave L: Ugh, get over the ads. They all lie, we know it, we don't believe a word of it!
Chris J: Obama didn't talk about why he abandoned the campaign finance pledge, that's something that I'd like to hear answered.
Wow..McCain is pissed. He's moving his mouth without speaking. He looks crazy. Oh my. He just said that he's proud of the people who come to his rallies...holy sh*t.
Paddy O: Obama is baiting him to bring up Ayers, baiting him.
TD: Obama's telling the country about Ayers. Good deal, especially when McCain said he didn't care about Ayers after making him the "centerpiece of his campaign," as Obama stated. Now he's distancing himself from ACORN.
Luke O: The first two debates seemed closer. In this one, McCain is showing
how he cannot answer a follow-up question. McCain is getting killed on
the issues. This like a jousting match between Winnie-the-Pooh, and Sir
Galahad. John, show that you can think on your feet!
Chris J: 35 minutes in and Ayers and ACORN are brought up. Ridiculous. No issues to be found, only tidbits that matter to the lunatic fringe
Dave L: The facts about these topics are easily available all over the Internet, why are we wasting our time on it?
I am glad to hear about who Obama does associate with. How can we know MORE about him? I have never seen any candidate more vetted.
Chris J: Is Barack dropping his "g"'s to pander to the working class? No need for that.
TD: Awwwwww sh*t - here come the running mate questions. I hope Bob asks McCain whether Palin is qualified.
Luke O: McCain is going down in flames. If he can't have his major issue be
anything other than Obama's loose past connections to Ayers, etc., he is
in major trouble. McCain, you need to win on the issues, not the
bogus, lame attacks.
Bob, good question about the relative merits of the respective VPs. A
legitimate question given McCain's age. (Holy scary-ness if Palin were
to inhabit the Oval Office. Yikes!)
Paddy O: McCain can't win this VP question....at least he's making an attempt.
TD: He did all that he could with that question. He's lucky Bob didn't ask HIM whether Palin is qualified. I wish McCain had been questioned about Palin's lousy interview answers . . .
Chris J: Of course she understands special needs families, she's about as smart.
Special guest Dennis H joins us in the studio: Okay, this is getting boring...
if this were a boxing match, the ref would have stopped it.
McCain seems battered and unable to defend himself.
McCain keeps repeating about not raising taxes like a punch-drunk
boxer.
TD: Yeah, he's starting to remind me of his little protege, just randomly spewing talking points regardless of context . . .
Chris J: That question was the perfect opportunity for Barack to say, "no, she is not capable of being President, she would be catastrophically dangerous to the safety and sovereignty of the United States".
TD: Yeah, but O doesn't need to go negative. Her approval rating is so low and her disapproval rating so high, he doesn't need to go there.
OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE FINAL PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE CONTINUES HERE!!
Live-Blogging The Final Presidential Debate, Part II!!
OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE FINAL PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE CONTINUES BELOW:
Mary J:
Questions on the VP?
BRING IT!
"Americans have gotten to know Sara Palin, shes a reformer. She's an inspiration to women..." yeah, if only we lived in the 1800's when abortions were still performed with tree bark and a prayer.
Wait, did he just say that Biden has bad foregin policy? Did he forget that his running mate has all of 15 minutes of foregin policy experience and has only used 1 page on her brand spanking new passport?
OK. My ears are smoking. Sarah Palin knows more than just about any other American about special needs children? She has a six month old Down syndrome son!!! I didn’t know jack about parenting after six months when facing that first time experience after having tons of experience with children. Sarah Palin doesn’t know jack about children with disabilities simply because she was irresponsible and popped one out over the age of 40 so she could be a sitting governor who was pregnant. How has this advanced women? If men could give birth I’d say it’s just as irresponsible. I think it’s pretty widely accepted now that McCain made a huge mistake in picking Palin. The average American voter may be a dope but not so dopey (thankfully) to have fallen for her hook, line and sinker like we/they were supposed to because she’s a woman with a special needs child. And you can’t tell me McCain knew a thing about the pregnant daughter before picking her. His pick of Palin is an absolute disgrace and was the last nail in the coffin to what could have been an amazing race by McCain.
TD: My god, woman, can you type fast!!!!
Chris J: A nuclear reactor on a ship is DRASTICALLY different than a regional scale nuclear power plant. That is the weakest argument ever, for nuclear power.
Special guest Bryna Bear joins us in the studio:
Palin - A reformer who will cut out the crony-ism and the good old boys? I'm not so sure that she will actually do that considering her track record with pressuring for the firing of her ex-brother in law. hmmm. If people are questioning Obama's experience in terms of being qualified to lead this country, I don't understand how they could look the other way when considering Palin.
And Biden voting against the first Gulf War? Maybe that wasn't such a
"wrong" thing to do.
Chris J: Bringing up NAFTA can only help Obama. The deal that shipped American jobs to the four corners.
Dave L: It is almost like McCain secretly works for the Obama Campaign. He keeps setting him for great and believable come backs.
TD: I think McCain is a little tight, like a team down three touchdowns in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. I will note that there's some concern in my living room that Obama keeps openly laughing at McCain. Beware the condescension factor!
Chris J: What's more expensive than the War on Terror, well, the War on Drugs and McCain swings and misses again.
Bryna B: Drill baby drill? not a sustainable solution.
I'm glad that Obama brought up human rights in the whole scheme of our
economic concerns with free trade. The US has a long history of putting their economic interests over the lives of people in other countries, particularly in Latin America (see: Haiti, Nicaragua, Panama...)
TD: No doubt, and most Americans don't know squat about it. They should teach that sh*t in grade school!
Mucho: Mccain- we have to listen to the words cause this is wayyyyyyyyyy past my bed time and I cant keep up if he uses more than 2 syllables"
Obama, STOP LAUGHING AT THE OLD FART! He doesn't know any better!
Luke O: McCain is getting killed. Come on John, give us something new, other
than your old talking points!
Paddy O: Great answer by Obama on the car makers and the way they make cars.
You no what, F McCain and his god-damned pre-conditions. I'm so sick of that friggen line. I hope you lose your Senate re-election whenever that is. 26yrs is too friggenlong in DC. A horrible campaign...your staff sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TD: I agree with everyone who has expressed the sentiment that McCain is falling on his face here. So far, this is the clearest victory for Obama of the three debates.
Chris J: Man....all these people show up to these rallies that JUST happen to have the perfect situation to turn into a ridiculously long anecdote that does nothing but make my eyes roll back into my head.
Paddy O: In case anyone is interested, the Phillies are up 5-0 in the 5th inning and a good scene in the Matrix is about to come up on HBO2.
TD: Right on, bro. Obama's putting this thing out of reach. Hard to believe they'd send McCain out there with the same old ammo.
Dave L: Oh my god, the answer to health care isn't electronic files... Obesity! He said it. We need to cut the funding to ADM and Cargill so they can buy corn cheaper then it costs farmers to produce it. They can then turn that corn into all that cheap processed food that is killing Americans.
TD: This guy (McCain) is talking about gold-plated health insurance plans. Says the guy with 13 houses!
Chris J: And McCain is down folks. The business tax smackdown just threw gollum into Mt. Doom.
McCain...listen. Don't put the blame on people for not belonging to a gym, put the blame on subsidies that allow twinkies and happy meals to be dirt cheap next to farm raised chicken and carrots.
TD: SENATOR GOVERNMENT!!!!! FROM "THAT ONE" TO "SENATOR GOVERNMENT!!!"
Dave L: Here he goes again pitching softballs to Obama.
Dennis H: It seems like McCain is trying to agitate Obama. O isn't taking the
bait. Mc doesn't recognize that he is overmatched.
God bless Mc, he was a commendable soldier. He follows commands. He is
not that good at tactics. He is out of his league when it comes to
strategy.
I bet Joe the plumber is wishing he were never brought up. But Mc isn't
giving up on Joe's vote in Ohio.
After O's answer on Joe ...re: small business, and health care, I bet
Mc is wishing he hadn't brought Joe up again.
Mary J: I am SO tired of hearing about Joe the Plumber! I think America ’s abhorrence for Sarah Palin shows us that little slogans and trying to repeat them as much as possible is not going to score points in this debate. It’s like hearing Sarah Palin talk about Joe Sixpack (I still can’t believe she said that; she must have gotten 20 lashes for improvising on THAT one) and HaaaKeey Moms every other sentence. Barack’s answers are well thought out and detailed and that’s what people are looking for. Can you guys already see him making his first address to the country? These debates and the last several weeks have really turned things around. In the first debate I thought Obama was a little smirky and nervous. Now he appears nothing but confident and smart but McCain is looking nervous.
Chris J: Alito, Roberts, and Thomas. I'm sure McCain voted for all three. Why not dig up Marshall to bring the court back to the center?
Luke-O: McCain, a federalist is not someone who believes in local power. A
federalist believes in a STRONG CENTRAL government. McCain thinks that
divesting power from the federal government to the states is federalism.
Dave L: Oh my god the abortion issue! I was hoping it would never come up. Returning abortion to the states will just send women out of state to get one. The idea is that abortion is murder is belief based and we can't allow the state or federal gov't legislate one group's beliefs over another's.
Bryna B: oohh boy. Roe v. Wade and the issue of supreme court appointments.
I agree that nominees should be judged on their qualifications, but it is
incomplete to judge them solely on that. A variety of ideologies on the
supreme court is essential to the system of checks and balances. To
appoint judges in an ideology-blind way is not looking at the whole picture.
TD: McCain needs to be mindful of the look on his face. Boy did he just look angry a minute or two ago while Obama was speaking. Fact is, the Roe v. Wade issue is in Obama's wheelhouse. HE'S A CONSTITUTIONAL LAW PROFESSOR, for pity's sake!
Chris J: Why is it that Republicans feel that they have the right to legislate our morals?
TD: Well, they feel that abortion is murder. Murder is certainly legislatable.
Mucho: Any one have a white tee shirt johnny boy can borrow as a flag??
Mary J: Did McCain just make that googly-eyed crazy look at Obama? Wow. He’s finished. Obama still has to keep steady for three weeks – a lot can happen and he can’t be overconfident – but the independents watching and trying to make up their minds have to be unimpressed with McCain’s answers and behavior. This guy wants to be present in less than 3 months and he’s looking more like W with his goofy looks than like a guy with a respectable record who can lead the nation.
Chris J: Obama's "tell", when he's angry, is that he takes a sip of water. Very interesting....look for it.
Dave L: Sorry, I think some of you are giving the American public a little to much credit. Marketing 101 is hit them with your product as often as possible. No one will even remember you until the 9th time they see your commercial (Gorilla Marketing). Repeating something enough makes most American's drink cheap beer and buy tons of sh!t they don't need. SUV's, HDTV, fancy import beer, HBO, all the crap for their kids...
Luke O: Obama, 91, McCain gets sacked in the end zone. Will McCain come out and endorse Obama tomorrow, conceding that he is the better person for the job? If O doesn't get elected, after this debate, I am moving to
Canada. McCain, put your glasses on and look at the score-board. John,
cut your losses and fake a heart attack. At least you'll get the
sympathy vote.
Paddy O: For Luke: "New Federalism" brought forth by Reagan is the return of power to the states from the federal government....and pretty much championed by the Rehnquist Court.
Mucho: Charter schools are a business. They offer a service. It should be the parents choice whether or not to buy this service. If education becomes privatized, then all or most "good" teachers and educators will be seduced by higher paychecks and the public education system will cease to do it's job, OFFER GOOD PUBLIC EDUCATION.
Dave L: Obama hit on responsibility again w/ teaching kids at home and turning off the TV. So many Americans just want to throw their kids in school and expect a valedictorian to come back. Most schools in America suck and it isn't just about funding or charter schools. Its about doing work at home too!
Bryna B: the answer to improving education is not necessarily the answer.
changing the culture of education and the expectation of cultivating critical
thinking skills is crucial to the change that we need for this country.
And as someone who is looking at tens of thousands of dollars in
undergrad debt, plus possibly $150,000-$200,000 more from med school, yeah, I'd say that making higher education more accessible & affordable is something that should be considered.
TD: Okay, debate's over. More comments from all of you still in the pipeline, but let's get everybody's final take on this debate as well, who won, etc.
Chris J: I don't agree here. We've seen that the free market doesn't work when it comes to economics, I don't think that it would work with schools either.
Dave L: To TD, if you are pro-choice then abortion is about constitutional law. IF you are pro-life then it is about FAITH, and you and I have discussed that recently. It's about a completely different worl view.
TD: If you are pro-choice it's about a woman's right to choose. Most of those women don't know squat about constitutional law, a penumbra of privacy that isn't spelled out in the constitution, or any of that crap. If you are pro-life, you probably believe that life starts at conception per the bible, and therefore abortion is murder.
Paddy O: At least my prediction is correct, this is soooooooooooo over. Time to start picking cabinet members.
Chris J: Earth to McCain....Palin's kid does NOT have Autism..so why would Palin know anything about Autism?
This debate was an utter mauling. McCain jabbed, and Barack responded each time with consecutive roundhouse. Obama looked and performed like a President, and McCain looked like an irrational child. Bob Sheiffer was an amazing moderator.
McCain's cut man has some work to do.
Yes, there have been a long line of McCain's that have served in the military...that's how he kept his flight status after crashing his plane 5 times, one of which almost brought down an aircraft carrier.
Denn H: no incumbent party has ever won a presidential election by running away from its own.
Dems lost in '68 when Humphrey ran against Johnson, more than against
Nixon
Reps lost in '76 when Ford ran against Nixon legacy
Dems lost in '00 when Gore distanced himself from Clinton
Reps will lose this year, McCain can't get far enough away from Bush
TD: Amen, brother.
Mucho: What are the requirements for receiving a voucher to attend a charter school? is it the child's performance in said school? Or the family's income and financial status? This is the first that I have heard of the voucher system for attending charter school. What happened to treating charter schools like private colleges and accepting students and offering students financial aid to attend?
Final statements... lets see if ol' johnny boy can contain himself enough NOT to interrupt after Obama speaks. His closing argument was like Chef Boyardee Beefaroni, overprepared and full of toxins
Obama sounds more or less like he is speaking from the cuff. Way to bring out the "work every single day" way to point out W.'s extended vacation
CINDY!!!!!!!!!!!!! we told you NOT to match the carpet!
Bryna B: did Cindy not know that the carpet was going to be matching her suit? Yikes!!!
Luke O: Paddy-O, my apologies for my ignorance about the New Federalism. How is it that federalism is a term that got attached to state power? The word "federalism" seems to imply federal power.
TD: Luke, it's just a temporal thing. There's a difference between Hamilton's Federalism, which advocated for a strong central government, and Calabresi's Federalist Society, which originated in the 1980s.
Mary J: Well, I’m not impressed with the closing speeches. And what was that little nervous dance by McCain after he shook Obama’s hand? I think I said it all during the debate but I’ll repeat: (1) Obama must not get cocky and must remain humble or he’ll lose ground. (2) I agree with Paddy O that a heart attack and a sympathy vote could work wonders for McCain at this point. These debates are a big part of the campaign but not the only part. Three weeks is a long time and what happens with the economy is going to affect the outcome of this race. Plenty of voters not listening to these debates and watching Fox News so I’m not 100% confident that the best man for the job in so many respects i.e. Barack Obama has it in the bag until I see those election returns on November 5th.
Let me also be a kiss a** and add a thank you to TD for putting this online live blog together. This has been a fun way to participate in these debates. Now go get some sleep since you and I are in Obama’s 95% that must go to work and could desperately use a break.
Luke O: I echo Mary J. Tom, thanks for the forum.
Dennis H: McCain gets a couple of points for showing up and staying through the end. The mercy rule should have been invoked though. Obama pulled ahead by more than 10 points early on and never looked back.
TD: Amen, brother. Preacher DH is sermonizing tonight!
Chris J: TD: You can't base legislation on faith nor can you make a coherent rational argument that revolves around faith. You CAN argue with facts and the constitution. Their worldview is irrelevant, their faith is their own and not anyone else's.
TD: I disagree on both points. Many societies have legislated based on faith. What about these Muslim legal codes that millions adhere to? You can also make a coherent rational argument based on faith, the only drawback being that if you're relying on faith, there may not be any scientifically provable facts to back it up.
Chris J: We're not talking about "societies", or muslim culture's, we're talking about the modern secular American society. We are a nation of many beliefs and, part of the protection our constitution offers is equal protection of our beliefs. You cannot, in this environment, in THIS country, base your legislation off of a faith based worldview. It is unethical and unsupportable and, insane. I believe this, because the giant unseen hamster in the sky tells me so.
Dave L: The muslim legal codes that millions follow are followed by millions of muslims. America is full Muslims, Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Agnostics and Atheists. We can't legislate any one's beliefs.
TD: Gentlemen - if you're talking about whether legislating based on religious beliefs is advisable or desirable, I agree with you that it's not, unless of course we all agree on a set of beliefs. It is possible to do so, though, which is the point I was making.
Dave L: Kind of a lame ending. I did like the format and I am glad they got to exchange face to face. McCain never did try to kick ass though. A very disappointing performance from McCain who relied on the old marketing ideas of repeating until blue in the face. It did keep in in line with Palin's short story to tell. Sticking to a short list of talking points might help her on the stump but did no good for him in this debate. I was really hoping McCain would do something to attract my vote but he failed miserably. Obama looked in control and presidential and definitely won my vote... As long as nothing bizarre shows up in the next 3 weeks.
Luke O: Yes, Kudos to Bob, he was far superior to the other moderators at
limiting answers and directing the debate as well as asking provocative
questions.
Nora, I like the Chef Boyardee (lol).
TD: If you ask me, I think somebody got their ass whupped, but it wasn't Obama! Paddy O was right - McCain came with the same tired talking points and arguments that either Obama or the press have refuted a thousand times. Most importantly, McCain was clearly losing his temper towards the end, while Obama remained calm, cool and collected. Admittedly, Obama was mostly playing defense, but with his poll numbers, that's all he needed to do, so this was a clear victory for Obama. If I were him, I'd triple my security detail over the next three weeks, because unless something drastic happens, he will be our next President!
This live-blog without a doubt featured the most reader participation of the four. THANKS TO ALL OF YOU FOR MAKING THIS LIVE-BLOG A RESOUNDING SUCCESS!!
PLEASE JOIN TSP LIVE ON ELECTION DAY AS WE LIVE-BLOG THE ELECTION RESULTS!!! CHECK IN WITH US AT TD@SYSTOCRACY.COM WITH YOUR ELECTION DAY STORIES AND WE'LL POST THEM!!!
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October 13, 2008
Obama's "Main Street" Rescue Plan
Fellow Systocrats:
Senator Obama, leading in the latest nationwide Washington Post/ABC News
poll by 10 points, unveiled his four point "Economic Rescue Plan for the Middle Class" while on the campaign trail in Toledo, Ohio today. Systocrat-minded folks should be very pleased with the "Main Street" orientation of the plan, in contrast to the 700 billion dollar "Wall Street" plan that so far has done little to stabilize our flagging markets.
Here's a brief summary of the four main points of the Obama "Main Street" plan:
Point 1: A self-described "aggressive" proposal to create jobs, which includes a $3,000 tax credit to businesses for each new full time employee hired, no capital gains tax on small business investments, and the preservation/creation of jobs by making 25 billion dollars available for infrastructure projects, such as repairing our deteriorating roads, bridges and schools.
Point 2: This provision provides immediate relief to "Main Street" by providing expedited tax cuts/rebates - $500 for workers and $1000 for families, by extending unemployment benefits, by allowing people to withdraw up to $10,000 from retirement accounts in 2008 (retroactively and going forward) and in 2009 without penalty, and by supplementing the recently passed federal Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program ("LIHEAP") to ensure that additional funding is available to residents of cold-weather states to help meet rising heating costs.
Point 3: Entitled "Direct, Immediate Assistance for Homeowners, not a Bailout for Irresponsible Mortgage Lenders," (my emphasis), this provision includes a mandate to allow the Treasury Department, HUD and bankruptcy judges to aggressively restructure the terms of mortgages in favor of homeowners. Point 3 also calls for 25 billion in relief to state governments to meet expenses and therefore keep property taxes down, and a 90 day moratorium on foreclosures for homeowners living in their homes who are making "good faith" efforts to pay their mortgages.
Point 4: This is somewhat of a catchall provision calling for additional "rapid, aggressive" action as needed to unfreeze the credit markets, ensure the continued functioning of non-financial institutions such as state/local governments and small businesses by making funding available as necessary, and additional measures to get our stalled economy moving again.
In general, I think this plan represents a thoughtful attempt to chart a course out of this economic crisis. I'll be very interested in the reception Senator Obama's proposal receives on Capitol Hill this week.
I do have a couple of comments. In any proposed financial rescue-type bill like this one, I would like to see a provision imposing formidable civil and criminal penalties for flagrant abuses of bailout money, such as AIG's wasteful expenditure of $440,000 to attend a sales conference a few days after we gave them $85 billion dollars of our money. This behavior is a direct affront to every American taxpayer and should not be tolerated or encouraged.
Also, with respect to Point 3, I think that the "good faith" provision will be difficult to interpret and/or enforce unless this bill contains an explicit definition of "good faith" and perhaps some commentary, with examples, on the types of homeowner actions that will be considered "good faith." For example, one phone call in thirty days to your rich Aunt Louise to ask for mortgage money while you are unemployed, capable of working yet not actively seeking a job, does not constitute good faith. Working two jobs, cutting expenses to the bone and still not being able to make the mortgage (like lots of people I know these days) - go ahead and claim your 90 day foreclosure moratorium.
Click here to see Obama discussing the main points of his Main Street Plan.
October 08, 2008
That One!!!!
MY FRIENDS!!!
This website is so supremely cool, so totally "right on" that I had to share it with everyone . . .
Check out www.ThatOne08.com to read about the life and times of Senator That One, Mrs. That One and the little That Ones!!
October 06, 2008
Live-Blogging The Second Presidential Debate!!
Fellow Systocrats:
WELCOME TO OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!
Like most of you, we thought that the pre-election event to watch would be the VP debate. However, with McCain's poll numbers slipping, Palin taking off the lipstick to launch attacks on Obama's character, Obama responding by resurrecting the Keating Five savings and loan scandal, McCain's camp announcing today that they need to distract American voters from the economy in order to win and time running out for McCain to flip the script, the stakes are high in Music City tonight. If you'd like to weigh in during the debate, email me at td@systocracy.com.
Joining me in the virtual TSP studio tonight is Paddy O, who will provide expert political commentary on tonight's debate.
TD: Paddy, Here's my take on tonight's event. John McCain is a desperate man in desperate times - the problem is that he's irrevocably tied to the failing economy, which is making headlines every day and effectively sinking his campaign. To save his ship, he's decided to go negative, so far to little or no effect, but tonight he has an international stage on which to bash Obama and shift the focus of American voters. Things could get real interesting . . . I look for McCain to seize the bull by the horns, accuse Obama of going negative before Obama can accuse him, and then run with the ball, counting once again on the fact that uninformed voters will take him at his word.
On the other side, Obama's starting to pull away in the electoral voting projections, in part due to his cool, calm deliberate demeanor during this economic crisis. He needs to maintain his cool, stay focused on the issues, and dismiss McCain's attacks as the desperate acts of a man who's starting to come to grips with the crushing truth that, unless the dynamic of this race changes drastically in the next thirty days, he'll never be elected President of the United States. Paddy?
Paddy O: MCCAIN'S LAST STAND!! This is the second debate and historically, the most watched debate between the Presidential candidates is the second. McCain has been sliding in the polls...it's important to note, that Obama hasn't actually been gaining that much in the polls as he's been a steady 48-50%. It's McCain who has dropped 4-5%. Much has to do with the blame the Republicans are getting on the economy (partially mis-guided see Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd, two King Nothings.) Additionally, tying McCain to Bush seems to have been very effective. Anyway, approximately 50-60 million people will probably be watching tonite's debate...Maybe half that will watch the third debate. McCain CANNOT let this opportunity slide the way his partner let hanging curveball after hanging curveball pass by her in the debate against Biden. Moreover, he cannot let the lies (see factcheck.org for Biden's numerous falsehoods) pass by. (Just as Obama cannot let any lies go unanswered.)McCain must do several things: 1) Assure the American people through argument, facts or slight of hand that he actually has a grasp on the economy...(good luck with that.) He also must remind the American people that when Bill Clinton ran for President he PROMISED middle-class tax cuts....and within 100 days he enacted the largest tax increase in history and then state that sounds awful familar. If he has to bring up the pending budget debacle and shortfall of Massachusetts, run by Obama's friend Deval Patrick, than so be it. (Damn the future racist arguments because both are African-American. McCain must choose victory or losing w/dignity like Bob Dole.) He must also bring up Obama's economic advisor Franklin Raines and the roll he played in Fannie/Freddie. 2) Separate himself from Bush; using the examples of the federal judge (gang of 14) issue and other instances where he opposed the Bush administration...including the fact that he was the loudest voice a) screaming for the surge b) screaming for Rumsfield to be shit-canned; and c) torture...and interwine his experience in his answer. He must also remind everyone that Obama's own party asked him to be Vice-President and run AGAINST Bush only four short years ago.3) Continue to pound away that Obama is an unknown, or a Chicago hack-machine politican and that due to the fact that Obama is an unknown, he is therefore untrustworthy. Naturally, this has begun w/ the Ayers story which clearly, Obama downplayed for a purpose...Ayers is an unrepetant cop-killer. At this point, if McCain needs to make the stretch that that Obama's support comes from friends of cop killers like Ayers, and Whoppi Goldberg (supporter of Philly cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal,) then McCain needs to make these points. Quite literally, he is running out of time. The fact he has to fight in North Carolina should be a slap in his face. Now is not the time to play nice. He's getting outspent on TV 3-1 and this debate is his last best chance at defining his opponent. 4) While the economy is clearly the No.1 issue, he must also pound on his foreign policy experience which is still Obama's Achilles heel. It was his finest moment in the last debate and he must continue to pound away at those arguments.THIS is the time for McCain. The next debate is too late. He must begin to turn the tide tonite...and then bill on it. Either that or prepare to retire as the Senior Senator from Arizona.
TD: Tom Brokaw's opening remarks. Tom's really diminished in my eyes since Russert passed away and he took over Meet the Press - in short - he's no Tim Russert! The candidates just came out. Mrs. Systocrat just noted that McCain appears to be wearing the same tie as the last debate. That was one stiff embrace by the candidates at the center of the stage.
Paddy O: Obama's playing the blame game and McCain needs to come back w/ Barney Frank and Chris Dodd.
Paddy O: I don't think either of them answered the first question . . .
TD: Me neither. These guys both appear kinda tight to me, like they'd rather not be sharing the same stage.
Paddy O: Who the hell is Meg Whitman? I choose Warren Buffett?
TD: EXCUSE ME, but is McCain talking down to Brother Oliver re: the financial crisis? Lots of groaning over this in my living room. Oh - here comes the Obama bashing, referencing Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae contributions to Obama's campaign.
Paddy O: ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!! He asked how is it going to help, NOT how it happened . . .
Still never answered the question. Obama started first thing answered question. Why didn't McCain say Dodd and Frank!!!!!!!!!!!!! Specifics help.
He's so smooth. He just answered the gentleman's question and slammed McCain at the same time....because McCain isn't smooth.
TD: Now Obama's dancing. This woman asked how the American people can trust anyone with their money, and Obama's talking about Dubya. Now he's saying what the Obama administration will do, but still hasn't addressed the "trust" issue.
Paddy O: Teresa Finch is my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the best question in the past two years!!!
TD: Now McCain's telling people why they can't trust Obama and stating that he's more trustworthy because of his voting record. He MUST be counting on the fact that none of his supporters or the independents that he needs are actually going to do so . . . .
Paddy O: McCain finally scores with the Finch question!!!
TD: Agreed, at least until the fact check.
Special guest Snick joins us in the studio: A couple of beginning observations. First, I think it's interesting that they picked a relatively round room for this debate. McCain cannot avoid eye contact by looking into a corner. Another observation is that I truly hope that McCain's version of becoming negative goes beyond using the word like "cronies" multiple times within the first 10 minutes and pointing out that Obama didn't sign something. And honestly, what's with the constant blinking by McCain?
TD: Brother does blink a lot, doesn't he? Mrs Systocrat thinks that McCain looks a bit like Elmo this evening . . .
Paddy O: I want money out of the system. The less money for the 535 pigs in DC to squander on studying fart gas
Special guest Leslie S joins us in the studio: My thoughts so far: it looked bad that McCrazy (love that name) had to write down the three areas. Also, "my friends"!!! PLEASE. Love that Obama referenced the Kennedy/moon speech. I think that will resonate with those who were around then and heard it.
Paddy O: Surviving in the military and serving in the Peace Corps aren't remotely the same burden.
TD: Agreed, but I guess you've got to go with what you've got. "My Friends . . . " (sorry Leslie!!). More BS from McCain about Obama raising taxes. The look of Obama's face is classic - kind of like the way you look at a crazy uncle at the family reunion.
Tom Brokaw needs to shut the hell up and let the candidates talk. Period.
Snick: Leslie S, I noticed that he wrote his points down. I also noticed that he used a Sharpie MARKER as his choice of writing utensil!
Paddy O: Why can't we do it in 2 years? It's a friggen bill????? Your not putting men on the moon!!!! Here's an idea....make Congress stay in Washington until they work something out!!!!!!!!!!!
TD: More of this "let's look at our records . . . " crap from McCain. Dangerous, given his record. Can't wait to hear his response to this question on the environment . . .
TD: McCain: "Obama says that nuclear power has to be safe and clean, or something like that . . . " Hard to sell nuclear power to Americans after Three Mile Island, regardless of what the Europeans are doing.
Paddy B: Just a note on McCain. He doesn't look 72. He looks younger than Biden.
TD: Honestly, I don't know about that - it's his mannerisms. He truly looks like an old man at times. I do think there's some Botox going on, or something to that effect.
Excellent question re: a Manhattan Project-type endeavor to solve the energy crisis. The official Systocrat position on that is a resounding YES!!!
Paddy B: Well Brokaw is at least better than Lehrer and Ifill.
Leslie S: Obama's hitting his stride now w the alternative energy issue and
reminding how many times McCrazy voted against it. GO O!!
ps brokaw is a tool.
Special guest Chris J joins us in the studio: Obama needs to deliver more concise answers. The average American cannot look for the pooplet of knowledge in a 5 minute monologue.
Did he just say THAT ONE? Who is THAT ONE?
TD: Chris, what the hell is a pooplet? Leslie, agreed that Brokaw is a tool. Pat, I'd prefer Ifill or Lehrer myself, although I do think that Brokaw deserves some credit for at least trying to stick to the format. At some point, you gotta realize that it's a futile effort and you're just distracting from the candidates.
TD: Did McCain just say something about putting our health care records online, as in online for all to see? McCain's health care plan is a disaster. How can anyone talk about putting anything on the market right now? Obama just hit this health care question out of the stadium by stating that health care is a "right," as opposed to McCain's lame characterization of this as a "responsibility."
Chris J: I cannot emphasize enough, Obama needs to stop rambllng. Take a clue from Biden from last week. He doesn't need to over talk this, McCain doesn't even know where he is right now. With all of McCain's panting, I don't think the town hall/standing up thing was the best idea.
TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE CONTINUES HERE!!
Live-Blogging the Second Presidential Debate - Part II!!
OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE 2ND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE CONTINUES BELOW:
Special guest Denn H joins us in the studio:
So far, this isn't helping either one of them.
When you wrestle with a pig (forget the lipstick),
both of you will get dirty, and only the pig will enjoy it.
Best way to fix social security is to have the senators and
representatives are on it. Not on their own special pensions.
Obama must be getting tired of correcting McCain.
McCain is really reaching out to touch tonight.
McCain is staying on the attack. It is good that he does. I think he
will get picked off base sooner, rather than later.
Chris J: a pooplet, is the valuable and hard to find chunk of goodness in a blizzard of useless vernacular.
TD: Chris, thanks for that particularly useful bit of information. Denn, I think that McCain's already been picked off base a couple of times, and will be in more trouble after the debate when the candidates' respective records are examined, per his suggestion.
Paddy B: [Obama said that] children are relatively cheap to insure???????? WHAAAAATTTTT!!!!! I have two kids and I don't find that to be the case re: co-pays, hearing tests, shots, etc. Then what happens when they get hurt? I know a child who had simple knee surgery that cost about $30,000 bucks...and wasn't entirely covered by insurance. That last statement is just plain NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TD: Not a particularly judicious statement by Obama on that point. I'm paying through the nose for family healthcare myself, and aren't kids the ones that are sick all the time?
CJ: Wow, healthcare coverage is a privilege..McCain's disdain for the lower class is now coming out for all to see.
TD: Actually he said it was a "responsibility." Just a little "pooplet" of knowledge for ya there . . .
Special guest Bryna Bear joins us in the studio:
The health "errors" as they call 'em?
you mean like one that allowed prescription pills to find their way
into your wife's purse? ahh. right.
If health care is a "responsibility", whose responsibility is it?
McCain't neglected to mention that detail, making it easier for any possible
health care improvements to not happen. Unless accountability is assigned, it is unlikely that any substantial improvement will actually occur.
TD: Wow, that bear's got claws! "McCain't - I like it!!! Nice counter to "No-Bama!"
Chris J :I'm glad Obama is addressing the comments about him not "understanding". You cannot let Old Man River call you out without responding, no way, no how. A man who wears a girdle cannot be left to say what he wants (Alisa is convinced that he wears a girdle, by the way).
TD: Agreed, that was an excellent moment that I'm sure Obama planned to address, whether it came up or not.
Leslie S: There can be no "victory" in IRAQ!!!
TD: That's right - even Petraeus won't talk about Iraq in terms of victory.
Paddy B: McCain scores again with the foreign policy answer re: McCain Doctrine . . . although Obama's answer was good as well.
That was a good answer by Obama re: Pakistan . . . although McCain has decent arguments as well.
Snick: On the responses to Obama saying that children are cheaper to insure - he's right. The point you are making as parents, is that you don't see that from the bills that come through the lack of payment from the insurance agencies. As for the cost to insurance companies, the risk of major health issues is lowest in children, thus making them the cheapest according to insurance companies. But the insurance companies rest on the fact that everyone will not know this little nugget of information and see them as another adult and therefore justify the same increase to the premium that an adult would cause. Denn H: Obama is right about healthcare being a right, not a responsibility, as McCain asserts. O is correct about companies moving where the laws are lenient. TD: I believe they call that a "race to the bottom" with Delaware being the absolute bottom in the US in terms of favorable corporate laws. Denn H: Constraints on military question: McCain speaks with conviction on this question.
Obama shows intellectual understanding.
McCain gaining ground on when he slows down and speaks about putting
American blood in harm's way.
Should we respect Pakistani boundaries question: O gave long winded answer, glad he wrapped it up in final sentence.
Mc started with good slide (on his part) to say O will invade...
O is clearing up that invading Pakistan is on the table..now he is
giving him the 'speaking softly' - 'Bomb Iran' song...
This is getting better now. Leslie S: I am SO glad Obama clarified his comment on Pakistan. He NEVER pre-announced he was going to attack Pakistan! McCain tried that trick at the first debate too, plus McCain's follow-up is ABSURD. Chris J: I like that Obama is asserting himself here with the Pakistan problem. It's painfully obvious that the Pakistanis do NOT have our best interests at heart so other tactics AND strategies are necessary. TD: Did I just hear McCain agreeing with Obama on the Pakistan question? I hope the Obama campaign is spooling up the new ads showing McCain's endorsement of him . . . TD: McCain just said that there'll be no Cold War. Somebody better tell his running mate, who referenced the Cold War during that first disastrous Gibson interview . . . Paddy O: Just to comment on Snick and kid's insurance cost. While insuring kids may cost "less," if you take them to the doctor 4-5x a year and the parent only goes 1x a year, it certainly costs "more" w/regards to the kids. Anyway, I actually agree with Tom re: universal health care But only for kids. (I just haven't figured out the arbitrary age to cut them off yet.). Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
TD: I believe they call that a "race to the bottom" with Delaware being the absolute bottom in the US in terms of favorable corporate laws. Denn H: Constraints on military question: McCain speaks with conviction on this question.
Obama shows intellectual understanding.
McCain gaining ground on when he slows down and speaks about putting
American blood in harm's way.
Should we respect Pakistani boundaries question: O gave long winded answer, glad he wrapped it up in final sentence.
Mc started with good slide (on his part) to say O will invade...
O is clearing up that invading Pakistan is on the table..now he is
giving him the 'speaking softly' - 'Bomb Iran' song...
This is getting better now. Leslie S: I am SO glad Obama clarified his comment on Pakistan. He NEVER pre-announced he was going to attack Pakistan! McCain tried that trick at the first debate too, plus McCain's follow-up is ABSURD. Chris J: I like that Obama is asserting himself here with the Pakistan problem. It's painfully obvious that the Pakistanis do NOT have our best interests at heart so other tactics AND strategies are necessary. TD: Did I just hear McCain agreeing with Obama on the Pakistan question? I hope the Obama campaign is spooling up the new ads showing McCain's endorsement of him . . . TD: McCain just said that there'll be no Cold War. Somebody better tell his running mate, who referenced the Cold War during that first disastrous Gibson interview . . . Paddy O: Just to comment on Snick and kid's insurance cost. While insuring kids may cost "less," if you take them to the doctor 4-5x a year and the parent only goes 1x a year, it certainly costs "more" w/regards to the kids. Anyway, I actually agree with Tom re: universal health care But only for kids. (I just haven't figured out the arbitrary age to cut them off yet.). Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Constraints on military question: McCain speaks with conviction on this question.
Obama shows intellectual understanding.
McCain gaining ground on when he slows down and speaks about putting
American blood in harm's way.
Should we respect Pakistani boundaries question: O gave long winded answer, glad he wrapped it up in final sentence.
Mc started with good slide (on his part) to say O will invade...
O is clearing up that invading Pakistan is on the table..now he is
giving him the 'speaking softly' - 'Bomb Iran' song...
This is getting better now. Leslie S: I am SO glad Obama clarified his comment on Pakistan. He NEVER pre-announced he was going to attack Pakistan! McCain tried that trick at the first debate too, plus McCain's follow-up is ABSURD. Chris J: I like that Obama is asserting himself here with the Pakistan problem. It's painfully obvious that the Pakistanis do NOT have our best interests at heart so other tactics AND strategies are necessary. TD: Did I just hear McCain agreeing with Obama on the Pakistan question? I hope the Obama campaign is spooling up the new ads showing McCain's endorsement of him . . . TD: McCain just said that there'll be no Cold War. Somebody better tell his running mate, who referenced the Cold War during that first disastrous Gibson interview . . . Paddy O: Just to comment on Snick and kid's insurance cost. While insuring kids may cost "less," if you take them to the doctor 4-5x a year and the parent only goes 1x a year, it certainly costs "more" w/regards to the kids. Anyway, I actually agree with Tom re: universal health care But only for kids. (I just haven't figured out the arbitrary age to cut them off yet.). Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Obama shows intellectual understanding.
McCain gaining ground on when he slows down and speaks about putting
American blood in harm's way.
Should we respect Pakistani boundaries question:
O gave long winded answer, glad he wrapped it up in final sentence.
Mc started with good slide (on his part) to say O will invade...
O is clearing up that invading Pakistan is on the table..now he is
giving him the 'speaking softly' - 'Bomb Iran' song...
This is getting better now. Leslie S: I am SO glad Obama clarified his comment on Pakistan. He NEVER pre-announced he was going to attack Pakistan! McCain tried that trick at the first debate too, plus McCain's follow-up is ABSURD. Chris J: I like that Obama is asserting himself here with the Pakistan problem. It's painfully obvious that the Pakistanis do NOT have our best interests at heart so other tactics AND strategies are necessary. TD: Did I just hear McCain agreeing with Obama on the Pakistan question? I hope the Obama campaign is spooling up the new ads showing McCain's endorsement of him . . . TD: McCain just said that there'll be no Cold War. Somebody better tell his running mate, who referenced the Cold War during that first disastrous Gibson interview . . . Paddy O: Just to comment on Snick and kid's insurance cost. While insuring kids may cost "less," if you take them to the doctor 4-5x a year and the parent only goes 1x a year, it certainly costs "more" w/regards to the kids. Anyway, I actually agree with Tom re: universal health care But only for kids. (I just haven't figured out the arbitrary age to cut them off yet.). Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Chris J: I like that Obama is asserting himself here with the Pakistan problem. It's painfully obvious that the Pakistanis do NOT have our best interests at heart so other tactics AND strategies are necessary. TD: Did I just hear McCain agreeing with Obama on the Pakistan question? I hope the Obama campaign is spooling up the new ads showing McCain's endorsement of him . . . TD: McCain just said that there'll be no Cold War. Somebody better tell his running mate, who referenced the Cold War during that first disastrous Gibson interview . . . Paddy O: Just to comment on Snick and kid's insurance cost. While insuring kids may cost "less," if you take them to the doctor 4-5x a year and the parent only goes 1x a year, it certainly costs "more" w/regards to the kids. Anyway, I actually agree with Tom re: universal health care But only for kids. (I just haven't figured out the arbitrary age to cut them off yet.). Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
TD: McCain just said that there'll be no Cold War. Somebody better tell his running mate, who referenced the Cold War during that first disastrous Gibson interview . . . Paddy O: Just to comment on Snick and kid's insurance cost. While insuring kids may cost "less," if you take them to the doctor 4-5x a year and the parent only goes 1x a year, it certainly costs "more" w/regards to the kids. Anyway, I actually agree with Tom re: universal health care But only for kids. (I just haven't figured out the arbitrary age to cut them off yet.). Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Chris J: All this talk about Russia. Anyone care to worry about the North Koreans? McCain seems to not fully grasp reality, in terms of the Iraq War. Snick: I didn't hear McCain mention that he would rely on Alaska to help with Russian. What happened there? I thought Alaska was the main eyes and ears the US would rely on when Russian was concern. Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Paddy B: Is it mischief or is it evil behavior???? My 5 year old does mischief. Invading a neighboring country....for no reason whatsoever isn't mischief.....it is evil behavior. Paddy B: UUHHHHHHHHHHH not again w/ the preconditions.....ENOUGH already. Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Chris J: McCain's pandering to veterans is nauseating. I don't know anyone who doesn't support the troops. Oh no, he said "preconditions" again. TD: He needs to explain why he was against Senator Webb's GI bill. Anyone recall McCain's reasoning on that one? Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Snick: Paddy O - I completely understand that children go to the doctor more. Obama's statement was the children are cheaper to receive health care insurance (the cost to insurance in premium costs). The out-of-pocket to parents might be higher, and thus an argument to have more children covered by health insurance. TD: They just showed Michelle. She had that "my husband's gonna be the next President" look on her face! Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Leslie S: what's wrong with talking? seriously?! Chris J: Barack, we all know your story by now . . . move on, answer the question!!! Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Paddy B: Obama's answer to the last question was the best non-answer in the history of debates! Chris J: I know what McCain doesn't know . . . if he'll survivve his term in office. Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Snick: OHHHH - we're bringing out the emotional guns now! TD: Okay, the debate's over. Let's get everybody's comments re: who won the debate, best moments, etc. Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Denn H: McCain hasn't shown anything new. He is repeating his talking points. Obama speaks as if he is thinking out his answers as he is speaking. Although that is likely prepared confidence. I think the big question for voters is: do you want to try something different, or do you want to continue with a known entity? If you keep doing what you've been doing, you'll keep getting what you've already got. Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Leslie S: No more opportunities, Mr. McCain - you've had enough of them. Your time is done! Bryna Bear: Russia being an evil empire does not depend on our response to them. ANSWER THE QUESTION!! "Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
"Everything I ever learned about leadership" coming from experience in the Navy? I worry that he admittedly has a singular mindset when approaching the world scene. I'm assuming he has gotten leadership experience in other realms, but is the military way of operating the best way to handle every situation? (not to discredit the military or the leadership qualities it can instill). Paddy B: McCain also had a very good answer to the last question. Another very good debate. Very close indeed. Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Chris J: I thought both candidates did a lot of meandering, and getting a solid answer was another futile task. I did think Obama scored a few good points in defense of some of McCain's untruths (i.e. taxes, Pakistan), but Obama was too long winded and McCain needs a reality check. Interesting that Barack and Michelle are the only one's working the crowd . . . McCain and the hobgoblin have left the building. Nice way to be in touch with the people. I'm seriously doubting McCain's ability to stand up for long periods of time. His breating and posture tonight really put up some serious warning signs in my mind. Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
Denn H: Obama came across as more 'presidential'. He seems to be aware that some actions can cause unintended consequences. McCain came across as a hard working guy, who is above average intelligence, but it seems times have changed and he is not comfortable as he would have been in a previous decade. TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
TD: Here's my two cents. In short, I think Obama won, simply because he's up by a substantial margin in the national polls and the EV projections, and McCain didn't have that game-changing moment that he needed to have. While McCain did score some points, he needed to do more than exchange points with Obama, and he didn't. Hard to see how McCain wins the election at this point. THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP's LIVE COVERAGE OF THE SECOND PRESIDENTIAL DEBATE!!! MORE COMMENTARY ON THE PRESIDENTIAL RACE COMING SOON!!!
October 02, 2008
Live-Blogging the VP Debate!
Fellow Systocrats: 
WELCOME TO OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE VP DEBATE!!
TD:Tonight, I'm joined in the virtual TSP studio by Paddy O'Brien, who will provide expert political commentary during TSP's live-blog of tonight's event. If you're following along with us during the debate and want to weigh in, please email us at td@systocracy.com or post a comment below. In the meantime, please check out our PREGAME COVERAGE OF THE DEBATES, PART I (PALIN) AND PART II (BIDEN)!!!
TD: Pat, as we get ready for the candidates to appear, here's my take on what they each need to do tonight to help their respective campaigns. For Palin, she needs to have some kind of answer for every single question, even if it's the most general, nonspecific answer in the world - no Katie Couric moments or she's done. Otherwise, expectations are so low that so long as she doesn't fall off the stage, it's probably not the end of the road for McCain's chances. If I can be completely honest here, I'm really hoping that she doesn't burst into tears after a question on foreign policy and run from the stage!
For Biden, it's simple. Answer the question, only the question, and then shut the hell up! Do not engage! Do not engage! If I were Palin, I'd try to provoke Biden with one of those "he's been in Washington since I was in 2nd grade . . ." comments she's been making on the campaign trail this past week.
Paddy B: I'm not sure that any one candidate has had as much pressure on them as Palin has tonite. McCain's campaign is essentially at the tipping point. If she bombs tonite as bad as she bombed in the Couric interview it could all be over. That would leave McCain needing to essentially knockout Obama in one of the last two debates. 1) I can't ever remember a knockout in a debate...the closest might have been when Dukakis bothced the question regarding what he would do if his wife was raped. 2) It's Obama, he's not getting knocked out; he's just that good.
For Biden, the roadmap for a good debate was laid out perfectly for him....by John McCain. He just needs to show that he has generally infinite knowledge of the issues. He also needs to avoid his penchant for foot-in-mouth disease...and if he says something that someone has already said he better give them credit or the plagiarizing issue will be back. No sighing and no invasion of space.
Palin needs to attack, attack, attack and attack some more. She needs to attack Biden on this paying taxes is patriotic. She has to have a line that basically says that paying taxes is the entire antithesis of the foundations of this country. Does Biden really believe that Sam Adams, John Hancock and the other participants in the Boston Tea Party think paying more taxes is patriotic? She seems to have very little knowledge of the issues, (or any major newspaper or magazine....or Supreme Court decision,) she needs to paint broad strokes, stay as general as possible and hammer at the themes of cut spending, big government is bad and Washington is broken.
It should be interesting. . .
TD: Here we go . . . Palin looks and sounds nervous as she came out - she said "thank you" about 50 times. I thought Biden was going to kiss her on the cheek when they met at center stage - the first gaffe avoided!
TD: Palin's first response on the economy. Sounds credible, except that she's arguing that McCain will bring more oversight . . .
TD: Biden looks STONED. Palin's been pretty smooth through the first five minutes. She's trying to assume the mantle of change from Obama as opposed to the "same old politics," which is interesting given who her running mate is and the positions he's taken over the last 7 years.
Special guest Mary J joins us in the studio: So do you guys have a running count of how many times she's said John McCain so far in the first 10 minutes? And if she says HAAKEE Mom again I'm going to choke. So far Biden looks cool and collected, if not a little older and more tired than he did several months ago.
Paddy B:
Biden: We'll be hearing that the fundamentals were strong until November. Semi-decent comeback from Palin about the workforce...although not likely true. Is she an actor??? It seems as though she has an awful lot of this material MEMORIZED!!!!!
All Due Respect???? Isn't that a euphemism for F*&k you????
Whose fault???? Loaded question; let's play the blame game. Decent beginning answer by blaming the lenders. Strict oversight by the gov't??? That's against what Ronald Reagan stood for? I thought she was conservative????
My guy warned first, No, my guy warned first. Thanks for the substance!!
Why does Biden need to ask someone how much it cost to fill a tank? Doesn't he know? Sounds like he's out of touch. She missed an opening...just so she can get her talking points in. She is incapable of thinking on her feet.
Paddy B: Biden just repeated what he just said. Our memories aren't that short. Biden needs to wipe that shit eating grin off his face. He cannot afford Al Gore's moments. And lower his voice. No shouting!!!!!!! Sounds condescending.
TD: I agree - the "condescending" alarm just went off among viewers in my living room for the same reason.
TD: Ah, the first real zinger of the night - McCain's health care plan is the "ultimate bridge to nowhere!" WELL DONE. But he is walking the line between well-informed and "condescending" . . .
TD: Palin just said that at least McCain doesn't "say different things to different groups. . . " I thought there was a "Bittergate" reference coming, but she didn't go there. At least not yet . . .
Mary J: Well, trying to be objective (and not by any means a Sarah Palin fan), if she appeals to folks for being very simple and plucky, she's proving that she is simple and plucky and very unpolished. Again, it doesn't appeal to me at all - I like some knowledge behind my candidates - but I can see how she would appeal to a lot of folks. And when it comes down to it, Palin and Biden are there to be cheerleaders for McCain and Obama. I knocked Palin earlier for saying John McCain too much but Biden is doing it just as much. And Paddy my friend, Biden's sh#%-eating grin is matched by Palin's flashy Miss Alaska smile. So far I think they are pretty well matched and appealing to their bases. Let me weigh in with my (gasp!) undecided husband to see if he's being swayed more by one than the other.
Paddy B: She shouldn't say that McCain's health care plan won't cost the gov't anything, she should say that it won't cost you the taxpayer anything more.
Biden's not from Scranton. He's from Washington D.C.
Great attack on MCCain's health plan. The health plan is pretty much a disaster . . . although not as big a disaster as socialized medicine. Right TD???
That Bridge to nowhere line was not funny; sounded corny and too rehearsed. He's making good points on what they won't support/slow up on but he needs to lower his voice otherwise it almost sounds as if he's talking down to us . . . well me anyway. I have my doubts about their ability to cut wasteful spending out of the budget. He has 534 friends in DC who won't let him cut out the wasteful spending/earmarks/pork.
Palin needs to stay w/what she did to the oil companies in Alaska. What about stopping the greed and corruption in Washington DC??? Greed is what makes Wall Street . . . and to a certain extent the economy go. It just needs to be regulated better. Can't let the foxes guard the henhouse.
If she's going to bring up corruption and greed on Wall Street, she should at least try and throw in some zingers re: Franklin Raines, one of Obama's financial advisors and a disaster as CEO of either Fannie/Freddie.
Biden's repeating himself again. He already said Obama warned first and McCain was surprised. I got it the first time.
TD: At least Biden's not repeating himself re: talking about energy, NO MATTER WHAT THE QUESTION IS!!! I guess that's the strategy for her to have an answer to every question . . . It's gonna be a little tedious when she's still talking energy an hour from now!
Paddy B: Now she's repeating herself. We get it, drill baby drill. YAWN!!! What's next? How about attacking Ford, GM, etc., and why they can't make energy efficient vehicles. When was the last time they lead the way in car innovation? Time for them to get back in the ballgame and stop playing second fiddle to Toyota.
Global warming: I actually like that she said she didn't care about the cause. The cause is the cause, now we have to find a way to fix it. I like that. I don't care whose fault it was or how we got here. Now that we are here, how the hell are we going to get out?
Solutions: Biden's losing me on his global warming position. Yes, man is part of the problem. How is he going to get China to stop opening those coal plants? Good luck! The Chinese are going to do whatever they have to. She should have asked him how he was going to get them to stop. Go to the UN? HA!!!
TD: Ahhight, this business about Obama voting "not to fund the troops" by insisting on a timeline really gets on my nerves! I'm glad Biden's putting the hammer down on her re: this topic. I "didn't hear a plan" in Palin's response either.
Now I'm hearing this "surrender" nonsense in terms of bringing the troops home early. EVEN PETRAEUS WON'T SPEAK OF THE IRAQ WAR IN TERMS OF "VICTORY!"
Mary J: Did Palin actually give an answer on the gay marriage question? We're trying to figure out what she just said. I think she was refusing to answer.
TD: She did. She said she's against it, same as Biden.
Mary J: So we're back to where we were before the surge and that puts us ahead?? Maybe I don't read enough but I haven't seen it in the press though I do know they are putting Navy guys on the streets in Iraq with guns. They didn't sign up for that and have NO experience in doing that. So the surge is stretching our resources beyond their limit and we don't really have anything behind that. Why can't they acknowledge that we aren't going to win and get the f&#$ out?
I like the "God love him but he's wrong" comment from Biden. Nice.
TD: Biden just said that Obama never said he would sit down with Ahmadinajead. I think he did say that during one of the early Dem debates, didn't he?
Mary J: OK. Palin just went down a bit more in my eyes. Obama/Biden are pusing McCain/Palin as being just like W. She said "nucular" a bunch of times. THAT sounds just like W to me.
So the rest of the world hates us because of our rights and freedoms? NO SARAH!! They hate us because we invade them with no cause and do it because we need to teach about ignoring history for the last 700 years. We could go back a lot farther if you want to talk about repeating imperialistic mistakes.
Paddy B: Ahh. Now I get the China reference . . . problem w/live blogging . . . and permanent politicians. They wait 5 mins after they say something to give us the last details. She giving a good answer for her base on the domestic couples issues. She should have said that she supports civil unions instead of the legalese of contract negotiations.
Foreign Policy . . . here we go.
Just a quick note so far. She didn't blow it on the domestic issues. Biden still showed a great grasp of specifics. McCain should have chosen Gen. Petraeus as VP the way they fawn over the guy. Let's remember he hasn't won anything . . . yet. (Point: I think eventually he will).
The whole thing about funding the troops is ridiculous b/c we know it was all about the timeline.
Bad answer . . . white flag? Blah Blah Blah. She should just say we are going to end the war also, just not on an arbitrary timeline.
McCain/Bush, now McCain/Cheney - good move tying him to Cheney. How long until Haliburton gets mentioned?
Biden: good answer on the Pakistan-Iran question. They both suck. Does Palin know what a madras is? That leader of Al Qaida??? Does she know his name??? Does she know his name??? Just say it??? Geezus, he's not Beetlejuice.
Preconditions, preconditions, naive . . . I HEARD THIS ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW ABOUT SOMETHING ORIGINAL!!!!!!
Back ye up there????? What the heck is that????
Biden scoring some points here re: Iraq . . . although the Spain thing is kinda a lie . . . b/c same context as Chavez and other Hispanic sounding dictator names.
Did Biden just refer to himself in the 3rd person??? Who is he, Bob Dole???
TD: TD doesn't know who Biden thinks he is!! LOL!! Biden is putting the smack down on Palin/McCain right now re: foreign policy. Ah- she just said "nucular" again!
Special guest Jess M. joins us in the studio: New drinking game - take a drink every time Palin says something inaccurate. GET DRUNK FAST!!!
Mary J: But Jess, don't underestimate the power of folks who like dear Sarah (again, NOT me). I see her as a complete moron who could never get hired if she talked like this in an interview. BUT, she's not completely falling apart and crying and she does have answers, even if they sound stupid. Good of her to remind us that she's a Washington outsider. That's one of the ways W got elected. And no one (but my sister) is a W fan now but that "aw shucks" attitude has wide appeal among "aw shucks" folks.
John McCain knows how to win a war?? I guess we won Vietnam like we are winning Iraq. I think she really screwed that one up.
OUR LIVE DEBATE COVERAGE CONTINUES HERE!!!
Live-Blogging the VP Debate - Part II!!!
OUR LIVE COVERAGE OF THE VP DEBATE CONTINUES BELOW!!
Special guest Chris J joins us in the studio: She's better at avoiding answers than Cheney. I have NO confidence that anything coming out of her mouth is her own opinion.
I'm up to 5 questions that she's danced around or either refused to answer. Any of us ever showed up to a job interview with anwers like this, and we'd get laughed out of the building.
Paddy B: Biden's making some good ground on foreign policy. However, he's laying the groundwork for McCain to have good ammunition in the next Presidential debate.
I like nuke question. Palin is kinda blowing this question. Sounds like the beauty queen contestant last year who bombed in a question. Great, Palin didn't even answer the question. Couldn't she just say that it was a last resort and then mention Harry Truman? Does she even know that Truman dropped the bomb? Although w/Biden's recent history failure himself he might think it was FDR . . . just like how he went on TV when the market crashed in 1929.
However, Biden clearly knows foreign policy and he has this material down pat. She's clearly on shaky ground. She needs a bell to end the round . . . of course . . .pf course Biden's long-winded answer might have given her a breath. SHUT UP AFTER YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT!!!!
Biden's beginning to pull away. McCain's campaign was stupid to let foreign policy go second.
Why does Biden always look so angry???? I think he's thinking "I can't believe I'm up here w/this novice. Still, where's the alleged Biden charm? He's saying all good things but his delivery isn't that great. His mastery of the specifics is impressive, though.
TD: Agreed on most of your points. I'l lcircle back to that dig on socialized medicine once I check in with my buddy Dennis Kucinich! In the meantime, for those of us who are up on the issues, she's pretty weak, but for those just looking for her to say anything coherent, she's more than fulfilling her mission. Unless she trips in the next twenty minutes, the GOP is going to declare victory, ridiculous as that sounds.
CJ: As a rule, I don't trust people who speak in third person . . . but I did laugh.
CJ: Wow . . . I didn't know that McCain, and McCain only, knows what evil is . . .
Paddy B: I'm actually surprised I haven't clicked the channel yet, probably b/c we are blogging, but most likely b/c there's no Sox game.
She's getting killed on foreign policy. Her handlers suck!!! McCain knows how to win a war b/c he's been there? I thought we lost Vietnam?
Great question re: heartbeat away . . . Great answer by Biden. His talking points re: the Obama policies are great.
Uh Oh, BUSH DOCTRINE . . .potential problem ahead.
ANSWER THE QUESTION, PALIN!!!! How the hell does ANWAR answer the question? It took her two minutes to finally get to a coherent answer. How does attacking Congress now answer the question??? She should have been attacking Congress from 9:00. 70 minutes later finally address the one group that has less approval than Bush.
What the F is she talking about???? "There you go again?" That's an old, old line. Talking about teachers isn't going to get the teacher unions to vote for you. Teachers are great, move the F on!!!!!!
TD: Pat, I can't believe that we're discussing this from opposite sides of where we usually stand, but I do thiink Palin is doing what she needs to do to appeal to her base, i.e. voters who just want somebody who looks and sounds like themselves and who are NOT going to stick around for the fact-check and post-debate analysis after the debate. Frankly I think she's doing as well as she can possibly do, which isn't too well, objectively speaking, and I don't think she's demonstrating any qualifications, but she's done enough to reenergize the base. This is definitely not going to be the end for the GOP ticket.
Special guest Denn H joins us in the studio: I think if you watch without sound, Sarah looks good. Biden's forehead looks frozen . . . Botox?
Remember the Kennedy-Nixon debate? Those who watched tv thought Kennedy won. Kennedy looked good, Nixon looked pasty.
People listening on the radio thought Nixon won.
Palin is a classic "store front" - looks good, but the inventory ain't there.
CJ: Has she ever read the Constitution?
TD: Chris, you're kidding yourself. THERE IS NO CONSTITUTION LEFT AFTER 7 YEARS OF BUSH!!!!!!
CJ: What does "exceptionalism" mean?
TD: It means she doesn't know what the f*#& she's talking about!!
Paddy B: TD, they'll both declare victory but I think here it's not like the last debate was essentially . . . in my humble opinion was too close to call. Here's Biden's winning . . . fairly clearly. No KO or TKO but if this was a 12 round bout, I'm not sure she won a round . . . maybe 1 or 2, and that's probably generous.
Is that the first time I heard the word "change???" Took a long time. I might have just missed it. Here we go, founding fathers . . . now bring up the Boston Tea Party and how paying taxes is patriotic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here's where Palin should say that Cheney is dangerous . . . if he's your hunting partner. That line might win the debate! LOL!
He hates Cheney, that's hatred in his eyes. WOW!!!
Sarah, PLEASE STOP REPEATING YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! EYE YI YI!!!!!!!!!! OK, bringing it back to your family is a good move. Too little too late. Referencing Reagan is always good for the base.
He's putting on the finishing touches here . . . sentimental . . wish he wasn't reading it, though.
No answer can beat Biden's statement. Maverick, Maverick, Maverick. ENOUGH!!! Romney is no Maverick!!! Enough about Wall Street, GREED AND CORRUPTION ON CAPITAL HILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CJ: Biden just brought the hammer of perspective down on bright and sunny Palin. Great use of getting choked up there . . . big points.
Denn H: Biden is clearing the bases with this Maverick title Palin keeps harping on.
Jess M: Well, I'm PUKEY DRUNK right now!! WHEEEEE!!!!!!
Special guest Rio joins us in the studio: How is it possible for Palin to lower taxes and build infrastructure at the same time???
TD: Palin just said she likes to be able to "answer the tough questions . . . for the American people" and my living room just erupted with a chorus of "SHE DIDN"T ANSWER A GODDAMN THING!!!"
Paddy B: Talking about the Supreme Court after Palin's Couric disaster is a good move. If you're working together, doesn't that constitute compromise? I think Biden needs to start questioning the motive of the 534 other morons. I bet most of them their motive is money . . . or fame. Lord knows it isn't doing what's best for the country.
CJ: Sarah . . . enough. Trickle down theory is finished. Stop insinuating otherwise.
TD: Okay, debate's over. Let's get some postgame comments from everyone in the TSP studio . . . Mary J, I note that the Down Syndrome baby is on the stage late at night once again . . .
Mary J: My ears are smoking again at the baby on stage. Her base will say "What a great Mom!" My baby is asleep in his crib where all babies should be this time of night. Yes her baby appears to be asleep as well. But what on earth is he getting out of being there?? Well, Mommy thinks it makes her look good and "diverse."
Special guest Mary K joins us in the studio:
She's a cheerleader
He doesn't answer the question.
I'm voting libertarian whomever it is to get the third party percentage up . . .
but coffee aside, I turned off at 9:30.
Paddy B: Closing arguments
Palin: That was clearly a jab at Michelle Obama and the "always been pround to be an American." The closing was pretty good . . .not great.
Biden: Four years from now will also be the most important election. Four years ago was the most important election. How can Biden not mention Palin's kid going overseas but mention McCain's???? She's standing two feet from you. Certitude? Too big a word to use. Good last couple sentences though.
Verdict: I think Biden won b/c he so clearly won foreign policy (and no foot in mouth). She didn't fall on her face but I'm not sold on the fact she put the brakes on McCain's slide in the polls. If McCain wants to change anything he has to do it himself.
While I think Biden won, clearly the race didn't end tonight . . . and I think that there was a clearly a chance of that. She held enough of her own that now we have to watch the next two debates.
CJ: Huge discrepancy in working knowledge of politics, in favor of Biden. Palin showed that she's the right kind of slippery, when it comes to being a Republican. She didn't slip up, which is good for her, but I got the distinct feeling that all of her answers were memorized, whereas Biden came across as having FULL knowledge of which he was speaking. Get her off script again and she'll fall flat on her face like she did with Couric.
I give it to Biden.
CJ: Just saw Ferrarro's commentary - she's an ASSHAT!
TD: CJ, what network are you watching, CNN? We've got MSNBC on in here . . . Pat Buchanan just said that of the four candidates, Palin was the most exciting debate candidate, to which Rachel Maddow responded "Yes - exciting and wrong vs. BORING AND RIGHT!!"
Paddy B: More comments: Was I watching another debate???? How come so many people (non-Fox) think she won? Did she win b/c expectations were so low? I mean she wasn't horrible but I thought Biden won. Maybe I missed something? Maybe it's b/c I watched less and listened more as I was typing . . . just like that Kennedy/Nixon reference earlier.
TD: It's because expectations were so low. Although I think that Palin objectively did a crappy job, she did so much better than anyone expected, in that she at least had something to say in response to each question (not necessarily an ANSWER TO THE QUESTION, mind you). The GOP is definitely going to be able to credibly spin this as a victory to their followers.
Denn H: Now comes the "who won" talk . . . Neither hit it out of the park.
On substance: Biden actually answered the questions and kept on track well. Palin talked smoothly, but didn't convey much . . .didn't even get in the neighborhood when answering some of the questions.
On looks: Palin won, apologies Joe, but she looks better on camera.
Where's the beef? Joe had the quarter pounder. Sarah is still looking for the bun. Who will get the greatest mileage from spin? Palin . . . she lasted the whole 90 minutes without saying much, but looking good doing it.
TD: Agreed on most of this. Her followers didn't need her to say much.
CJ: NBC (Brian Williams) had Ferraro on immediately after the closing remarks. She made a comment about Palin not falling on her face and how good that is for women. The wife and I both got the feeling like when Biden made that "remark" Obama being articulate.
TD: Here's my take on the debate. Both candidates did exactly what they needed to do. Biden avoided any serious gaffes and Palin avoided looking and sounding as utterly unqualified as she did during the Couric/Gibson interviews. In terms of who gets a bounce from this event, I think it depends on whether voters are actually paying attention to the substance of her answers.
For someone who was onstage for 90 minutes, Palin really didn't say too much, while Biden was most impressive in his grasp of the issues. Palin did hit all the key talking points, though, even if her facts were wrong and her answers did not match the questions. She harped on the McCain myth that Obama's tax plan will raise taxes for the middle class, spun Obama's vote for a timetable for troop withdrawal into a refusal to fund the troops, and even managed to give up the religious right a shout-out with her reference to the "Shining City on the Hill." People who were already inclined to vote for her will take what they want from her performance. If anything more clearly demonstrates her limited grasp of national issues, it was her insistence on discussing energy policy whenever she didn't know the answer to a question. Folks, she talked about energy at LOT. The most disturbing moment was probably when she said she wants to be a Cheney-esque VP - in fact, she wants to expand the VP's role! After Cheney??? All I can say is, "WOW!!!"
Biden's best moments were probably when he hammered Palin/McCain on the fact that McCain's proposed policies are nearly identical to Bush/Cheney's. Other than a gaffe-free night, there's probably no better point that Biden could have made.
Given the state of the economy, I'm going to give the debate to Biden, because I do think that independent voters are paying strict attention, in which case they'll realize that Palin, while she didn't implode under the intense pressure leading up to this debate, is nonetheless all style and no substance.
THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO PARTICIPATED IN TSP'S LIVE BLOG OF THIS DEBATE!!! MORE POST-DEBATE COVERAGE COMING SOON!!!
October 01, 2008
The VP Debate Pregame Show - Part 1!!
TD: On behalf of TSP TV, welcome to the official Systocrat vice presidential debate pregame show! Let's send you directly to our host, Howard Cosell. Howard?
Cosell: (In deliberate Cosell-speak) Thank you, Tee Dee, and WELCOME to the OFFICIAL . . . VP PRE-GAME SHOW!!!!
The importance of this debate cannot be overestimated for either of these campaigns. Representing the pachyderm party, Sarah Palin, the winsome, if somewhat empty headed governor of Alaska who hit the campaign trail with a roar, but who has recently proven unable to field even the simplest of questions in televised interviews. With her approval rating down over twenty points in the last two weeks, conservatives are calling for her removal from the ticket before this debate, as a necessary step to avoid what they, and many others, consider certain doom for the GOP if Palin is exposed to the withering spotlight that IS an internationally televised presidential debate.
Nor is this debate free from peril for the number two man on the Democratic ticket, Joseph Biden, who, along with his running mate Obama, will carry a significant nationwide polling advantage into this debate. When Biden was announced, pundits around the country, including those regularly featured on this network, expressed the view that Biden is a loquacious, gaffe-prone bumbler who always has one foot in his mouth. Fortunately for the jackass party, Biden's epic gaffes on the campaign trail have been overshadowed by Palin's demonstrated and historic lack of qualifications.
Let's check in with both camps. First, let's send you to John McCain's ranch in Arizona, where Sarah Palin is busy preparing for the debate with . . . . with . . . . is that YOU, Mr. President?
Large studio monitor shows Palin and Bill Clinton sitting at a table piled 
high with books and papers. Their heads are together, and Clinton has his arm around Palin, which he quickly removes as soon as he realizes the cameras are rolling.
Clinton: (Uncomfortably) Uh, hey Howard.
Palin: PUTIN BAILOUT ENERGY SIXPACK COMMISSION WAR GOD TROOPS LEADERSHIP TROOPERGATE. HOWARD!! (Dazed smile and wave).
Clinton: Uh, you'll have to excuse her - she's been studying for four days straight. (Leans over and . . . claps his hands in front of Palin's face!).
Palin (with a start): Where am I?
Clinton (pats Palin on the head): Don't you worry your pretty little head about that now. . . (Dazed look returns to Palin's face).
Cosell: EXCUSE ME, Mr. President! You've pledged your support to Barack Obama! What on earth are you doing helping Governor Palin prepare for this historic debate?
Clinton: Well shucks, Howard, I've always said that Governor Palin is an instinctually effective candidate with a compelling story. Hell, she's pretty cute too. (Down home chuckle).
Cosell: This is a SHOCKING development. SHOCKING! Mr. President, where is your wife, Senator Hillary Clinton tonight? Is she out campaigning for Senator Obama?
Clinton: (Under his breath) Not likely . . . (Into the camera with hands outstretched). OF COURSE SHE IS! We just LOVE Senator Obama!
Palin (waving smelling salts under her own nose and then turning to face Bill): Excuse me, but I think Howard is here to interview ME, the savior of the Republican Party! (Turns back to camera). Now, after the PALIN/MCCAIN ticket is elected, it's very important when you consider even that is what American needs today - that's more than a lot of senators and representatives did for us . . .
Cosell: What? Bill, what did she just say?
Palin: (takes another healthy snort from the smelling salts and shakes her head vigorously . . . ). Yeah, well Bill told me a few minutes ago that supporting John and I is the best way to ensure that Hillary can run again in 2012 . . .
Clinton & Cosell together: WHAT????
Palin: Well there is a danger in allowing the impact for opportunity to change it . . .
Clinton: (big, fake smile on his face): Don't speak honey, you'll ruin everything . . .
Palin: Don't condescend to me, you womanizing hillbilly! I'm no pop tart - I'm the governor of Alaska! And I AM very well informed - I read every single newspaper in the world every day!
Cosell: Specifically, which newspapers do you read?
Palin: IN WHAT RESPECT, Howard?
Bill: (Leans in and whispers to Palin) . . . uh, he wants you to name some actual newspapers. Just name any newspaper you can think of . . .
Palin: (Long, LONG pause . . . . . . . . ) Well, Howard, I'll have to get that information and I'll BRING IT TO YA!!!!
Clinton: This is HOPELESS! I'm outta here.
Clinton gets up to leave just as there is the sound of a door opening, followed by angry voices off camera and the sound of rapidly approaching footsteps. The camera pans left to reveal Clinton face to face with an angry John McCain . . .
McCain: (Growling) MY FRIEND, I thought I told you to stay away from my trophy girlfriend . . . uh, candidate!
Clinton: (voice rising) I don't sweat you, you old punk! Now that I'm standing here, why don't you tell that joke about Chelsea's father again? Awww yeah, Janet Reno is about to whup your ass!
McCain: It's on, bitch!!!
A brawl ensues as Palin looks on. TSP hastily switches back to Howard Cosell in the studio.
Cosell: AFTER THE COMMERCIAL BREAK, STAY TUNED FOR PART II OF THE PREGAME SHOW, WHEN WE CHECK IN WITH SENATOR BIDEN!
STUDIO VOICE: This portion of the pregame show has been sponsored by the Sarah Palin Random Quote Generator!
The VP Debate Pregame Show - Part 2!!
TD: Welcome to Part II of our VP Debate pregame show! Once again, our host, Howard Cosell. Howard?
Cosell (in deliberate Cosell-speak): Thank you, Tee Dee. Let's go live to Wilmington, Delaware, where Joe Biden is busy preparing for the debate.
Camera shows Biden in the film room, watching clips of Palin's debates in the 2006 Alaska gubernatorial race.
Cosell: Senator Biden, I presume?
Biden: Hey Howard! God love ya, how ya doin?
Cosell: Senator Biden, you have a well-deserved reputation as a gaffe machine. For example, at the beginning of your presidential campaign, you controversially described Senator Obama as "clean" and "articulate" . . .
Biden: And bright . . . don't forget bright . . .
Cosell: Right, and . . .
Biden: For a black man . . .
Cosell: I beg your pardon?
Biden: You know? A Negro? A brother? African American, well Halfrican, really . . .
Cosell: (Loudly clearing his throat to cut Biden off). Right. Now you've also said that Senator Clinton would make a better running mate than you . . .
Biden: Well, she would. Let's face it - I'm on the ticket because I'm an old white guy from Pennsylvania with white hair and a long resume. Hillary's actually a skilled politician, if somewhat of a selfish pain in the keister. Besides, I would personally love to watch Hillary kick Sarah Palin's ass in a debate. Quite frankly, I think the whole country would like to see that . . .
Cosell: EXCUSE ME - did you just call Senator Clinton a pain in the ass?
Biden: Well, if I did, I meant it in the best possible way. Look, she's an incredibly tenacious politician . . .
Cosell: You don't appear to be preparing for this debate, Senator. Is that because you don't respect your opponent?
Biden: Well, I'm certainly not going to say anything condescending about Governor Palin - that would be a gaffe of epic proportions!!
Cosell: What do you think about her qualifications to be vice president?
Biden: QUALIFICATIONS? WHAT QUALIFICATIONS? She's the most SPECTACULARLY UNQUALIFIED candidate in the history of the United States! Did you see those Katie Couric interviews? Personally, I think it's a disgrace that she's even on the ticket. It's a good thing the Republicans don't have a real VP candidate, otherwise I'd have to waste a buttload of time preparing like this was a REAL debate . . .
Cosell: Not exactly the most flattering remarks . . .
Biden (looking off-camera): Hey, is Steven Hawking part of your camera crew? Steven, stand up and get over here!
Cosell: Uh, he can't walk, Joe.
Biden (nodding slowly, thinking). Right, right. I guess that explains the wheelchair . . .
Cosell: Okay, so getting back to politics, what's your strategy for this debate with Governor Palin? Are you going to treat her differently because she's a woman?
Biden: Absolutely not! I mean, look, Palin's a smart lady, and I've debated plenty of smart women, like Hillary, for example. Besides, she's a lot like my wife, Jill Biden.
Cosell: Smart, you mean? I know that Jill Biden has a doctorate in education . . .
Biden: Yes, smart. AND DROP DEAD GORGEOUS!! But that doesn't bother me. I know how to debate smart, gorgeous women. And I love my wife - the fact that she has her doctorate doesn't bother me at all . . .I'm not threatened in the slightest by the fact that she's clearly smarter than I am.
Cosell: Yeah, well, I can see that . . .
Biden: Is there anything else, Howard? I need to get one of my interns of Indian descent to go down to 7-11 and grab me a coffee.
Cosell: Well, now that you've offended educated women, African Americans, people with a mixed-race background, disabled persons, people of Indian descent, Hillary Clinton, Sarah Palin, Steven Hawking, conservative voters, pit bulls with or without lipstick and hockey moms, I suppose this is a decent time to terminate the interview. Sure you don't want to take a stab at alienating Catholics while the cameras are still rolling? After all, they're a relatively small voting bloc - only 47 million or so . . .
Biden: I would NEVER alienate Catholics - after all, I am Catholic. By the way, I'm still pro-choice. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go take communion before my coffee arrives.
Cosell: Thank you, Senator Biden. (Turns to camera).
THAT CONCLUDES TSP'S PREGAME COVERAGE OF THE VP DEBATE! PLEASE TUNE IN AFTER THE DEBATE FOR TSP'S POSTGAME ANALYSIS!
READ PART I OF TSP'S PREGAME COVERAGE OF THE VP DEBATE!
Political Cartoon by John Klossner.
September 28, 2008
The First Presidential Debate - Another Take On Obama's "Agreeable" Disposition
Fellow Systocrats:
One aspect of the main stream media's coverage of the first presidential debate that merits more analysis is the contention that Obama was “too nice,” specifically that he should not have agreed with McCain as many times as he did. What’s missing from the post-debate coverage is some commentary on just how necessary it will be for the next President not only to seek common ground with people who hold different views, but to be strong and confident enough to express these views in order to narrow the scope of disputes, bridge the gap between competing positions and ultimately achieve consensus.
Here’s an example that throws this issue into high relief. I was talking with a neighbor last night, and she wanted to know what Obama’s position was re: effecting the military defense of this country. Specifically, she stated that as a result of the closing of military bases up and down the Atlantic coast, she felt “exposed.” “What if there’s an attack?” she wondered aloud. “How will we defend ourselves?”
Here's the disturbing truth - there can be no effective military defense to an invisible enemy. Modern warfare is fundamentally different from traditional warfare in that no modern army, especially one that plans to take on the vaunted military might of the United States, is going to present itself on any battlefield to be conveniently annihilated. As the Russians learned in Afghanistan, and as we’ve learned in Vietnam and now in Bush’s ill-conceived “war on terror” it is difficult, if not impossible, to decisively defeat an enemy you can’t find. This analysis also holds true in the event that we find ourselves arrayed against a sovereign nation, like Iran for example. Our military might roll in and take over, but good luck maintaining the peace if the resistance is mounted by an unseen guerilla force that watches for an opportunity and strikes when it’s convenient for them to do so.
Diplomacy is the key to resolving international conflicts in the modern era. We need a leader who is willing and able to bring warring factions to the negotiating table and keep them there until a meaningful accord is reached. In that regard, I ask readers to consider which diplomatic approach is likely more effective: the “you’re with us or against us” approach favored by both Bush and McCain, or Obama’s willingness to acknowledge the existence of common ground with an adversary in order to narrow the issues in dispute before addressing the contentious issues. In light of McCain's behavior at the first debate, how are foreign leaders likely to react when McCain or his Secretary of State show up at the negotiating table, refuse to look their counterparts in the eye and otherwise act contemptuously towards them?
Obviously strength is needed as well – we certainly don’t want a leader that can be easily rolled. We can always threaten to impose economic sanctions, embargoes, etc, although these measures are useless against metanational terrorist groups. But the proverbial big stick is only going to carry us but so far in the modern age. What will we threaten foreign/terrorist leaders with in twenty years when it’s likely that most nations/terrorist organizations will not only have access to nuclear weapons or some futuristic equivalent, but also the means to direct these weapons to our shores from some remote location?
The ability to find common ground is essential on the home front as well. There are essentially two Americas right now – a red America and a blue America. While there are obviouly divergent views within each “America,” there are nonetheless fundamental differences between many of the “Reds” and many of the “Blues” re: the direction this country should take in the next eight years. What’s needed is a leader who’s confident enough to note the areas of agreement without fear of giving away some silly tactical advantage, in order to bring people together and get things done. McCain and Obama both contend that they have the ability to bring people together to solve problems, but McCain’s actions and demeanor at the first debate strongly suggest otherwise.
For those pundits who think Obama conceded too much, as a practical matter of debate strategy, by agreeing with some of McCain's statements, the debate transcript reveals that when Obama “agreed” with McCain, he really didn’t give away anything other than some soundbytes that McCain could take out of context and use against him. I do agree that Obama did miss some opportunities to really blast McCain, by pointing out Ms. Palin's fondness for earmarks, for example, and I do think Obama should have confronted McCain directly re: McCain's repeated assertion that "Obama doesn't understand" various issues of national importance. But the latest McCain ad is nothing more than pure political spin, taking Obama's comments out of context to manufacture the impression that somehow Obama "endorsed" McCain's position on certain issues.
Let’s look at the actual exchanges between Obama and McCain, taken out of context in McCain’s new ad, where Obama purportedly "agreed" with McCain:
EXCHANGE 1:
LEHRER: Are you going to vote for the [bailout] plan, Senator McCain?
MCCAIN: . . . . Sure. But -- but let me -- let me point out, I also warned about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and warned about corporate greed and excess, and CEO pay, and all that. A lot of us saw this train wreck coming.
But there's also the issue of responsibility . . . You've mentioned President Dwight David Eisenhower. President Eisenhower, on the night before the Normandy invasion, went into his room, and he wrote out two letters.
One of them was a letter congratulating the great members of the military and allies that had conducted and succeeded in the greatest invasion in history, still to this day, and forever.
And he wrote out another letter, and that was a letter of resignation from the United States Army for the failure of the landings at Normandy.
Somehow we've lost that accountability. I've been heavily criticized because I called for the resignation of the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. We've got to start also holding people accountable, and we've got to reward people who succeed.
But somehow in Washington today -- and I'm afraid on Wall Street -- greed is rewarded, excess is rewarded, and corruption -- or certainly failure to carry out our responsibility is rewarded.
As president of the United States, people are going to be held accountable in my administration. And I promise you that that will happen.
LEHRER: Do you have something directly to say, Senator Obama, to Senator McCain about what he just said?
OBAMA: Well, I think Senator McCain's absolutely right that we need more responsibility, but we need it not just when there's a crisis. I mean, we've had years in which the reigning economic ideology has been what's good for Wall Street, but not what's good for Main Street.
And there are folks out there who've been struggling before this crisis took place. And that's why it's so important, as we solve this short-term problem, that we look at some of the underlying issues that have led to wages and incomes for ordinary Americans to go down, the -- a health care system that is broken, energy policies that are not working, because, you know, 10 days ago, John said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound.
LEHRER: Say it directly to him.
OBAMA: I do not think that they are.
LEHRER: Say it directly to him.
OBAMA: Well, the -- John, 10 days ago, you said that the fundamentals of the economy are sound. And...
MCCAIN: Are you afraid I couldn't hear him?
LEHRER: I'm just determined to get you all to talk to each other. I'm going to try.
OBAMA: The -- and I just fundamentally disagree. And unless we are holding ourselves accountable day in, day out, not just when there's a crisis for folks who have power and influence and can hire lobbyists, but for the nurse, the teacher, the police officer, who, frankly, at the end of each month, they've got a little financial crisis going on.
This exchange reveals that the only point on which Obama expressed agreement with McCain is that there needs to be more accountability. Should he have disagreed with a statement that virtually 100% of Americans probably agree with just because McCain said it first?
"AGREEMENT" NO. 2:
Obama then agreed with McCain that the earmarks process has been abused and that lobbyists and special interest groups are responsible for “introducing these kinds of requests. Again, would the vast majority of Americans disagree with this statement? I don’t think Obama was required to disagree just because McCain stated a commonly held opinion before Obama had a chance to.
"AGREEMENT" NO. 3:
Here’s the last “agreement” cited in McCain’s ad:
MCCAIN: Well -- well, let me give you an example of what Senator Obama finds objectionable, the business tax.
Right now, the United States of American business pays the second-highest business taxes in the world, 35 percent. Ireland pays 11 percent.
Now, if you're a business person, and you can locate any place in the world, then, obviously, if you go to the country where it's 11 percent tax versus 35 percent, you're going to be able to create jobs, increase your business, make more investment, et cetera.
I want to cut that business tax. I want to cut it so that businesses will remain in -- in the United States of America and create jobs . . .
OBAMA: Now, John mentioned the fact that business taxes on paper are high in this country, and he's absolutely right. Here's the problem: There are so many loopholes that have been written into the tax code, oftentimes with support of Senator McCain, that we actually see our businesses pay effectively one of the lowest tax rates in the world.
And what that means, then, is that there are people out there who are working every day, who are not getting a tax cut, and you want to give them more.
It's not like you want to close the loopholes. You just want to add an additional tax cut over the loopholes. And that's a problem?
In this last exchange, Obama's not really agreeing with McCain at all. McCain says business taxes are high, and Obama counters by pointing out these taxes are high on paper, but that McCain has failed to tell the American people the whole story - in effect, American businesses are taxed at some of the lowest rates in the world due to gaping loopholes in our corporate tax code.
The bottom line: reports of Obama's over-geniality are greatly exaggerated, both as a matter of fact and as a negative aspect of Obama's debating style. The thoughtful reader will agree that Obama's performance at the first debate demonstrates that he has the ideal characteristics for a twenty-first century leader.
September 24, 2008
Sports Complex-Gate
Fellow Systocrats:
I posted this a couple of weeks ago after following up on some of the statements contained in Anne Kilkenny's now well-circulated email in which she gives us the local perspective on Sarah Palin. This information was buried at the bottom of my Anne Kilkenny post, and since that time, this story has died - nobody in the mainstream media is talking about "Sports Complex-Gate." I think this story really demonstrates why Palin is not ready to occupy the top spot in the executive branch of the United States government, so I've republished it here as it's own post.
Of particular interest is a recent piece by the Wall Street Journal re: the 
ongoing Wasilla Sports Complex litigation, which Ms. Palin commissioned while she was Mayor. As reported by WSJ, essentially, Ms. Palin's "administration" negotiated a favorable price ($126,000) for the 80 acre parcel of land that the Complex was to be built upon, but then failed to close the deal by executing the necessary documents confirming the sale agreement. Meanwhile, another developer swooped in and bought the property out from under the town, precipitating a lawsuit by the town of Wasilla against the developer. When the federal court ruled in favor of the developer, the town then (after Ms. Palin had left "office") decided to take the property by eminent domain. For the moment, the town has prevailed in that legal action - sort of. An arbitrator recently ruled that Wasilla had the constitutional right to acquire the property by eminent domain, but that the developer was entitled to receive a whopping $836,378 for the land, plus an additional $336,000 in interest! Obviously, that's a far cry from the $126,000 purchase the town had initially negotiated. Further, Wasilla's city attorney estimates Wasilla's attorney fees at a quarter of a million dollars, and it's not over yet! The developer has appealed, arguing that he's entitled to more interest!
I would love to be able to report the actual language the judge(s) used to describe the town's incompetence in failing to close this deal, but my search of the usual online legal databases for the actual text of these decisions yielded nothing. Nada. Not a word about this ongoing dispute.
Bottom line: as a result of the Palin "administration's" sloppy actions, the town of Wasilla is out well over a million bucks, with more attorney fees to come. All because her administration didn't bother to do something that anyone who's been in business for twenty minutes would have done - get the contract signed!
And there are people in this country that actually believe that Sarah Palin will be ready to lead on day one? All I can say to those people is "wow."
September 23, 2008
The Great Divide Between Red and Blue America
Why do McCain & Palin keep lying on the campaign trail, even after the media
has repeatedly called them out for running a negative, dishonest campaign?
Because McCain, just like Bush before him, knows that there is a certain component of his constituency that will accept any information put forth by his camp and subsequently parroted by right wing media outlets like Fox News, conservative talk radio, etc. To demonstrate this point, posted below is an email exchange between “Marissa Adams” a liberal in Massachusetts, and “Danny Duke” a conservative out of Kentucky.
The “Carol McCain” email that precedes the featured exchange is a bit lengthy, the content closely tracking an article that appeared in the Daily Mail Online. However, for all of you “blue state” folks out there who are wondering whether anyone out there is paying attention to all of the smears, lies and misinformation about Barack Obama being disseminated by McCain and his cronies, here’s proof that the right wing media networks are just as effective as ever. It is absolutely mindboggling how anyone could be this misinformed in the Internet Age, where accurate information about the candidates is a mere mouse click away, but TSP has nonetheless been informed by a reliable source that “Mr. Duke’s” views are all too common in the “red state” neck of the woods.
Equally troubling to the thoughtful reader is the profound difference of opinion between “Marissa” and “Danny” re: the information and issues that are relevant in evaluating the two presidential candidates, less than two months away from what will easily be the most important election of our generation to date. Rather than succumbing to the temptation to pass judgment on our red state brothers and sisters, for now it is enough to reflect on what appears to be a rather pronounced divide between red and blue state values, and to contemplate how we might find common ground so that someday we can move forward again as one nation.
FROM: “THIRD PARTY TAMMY”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Not trying to down anyone's favorite pick for president, but someone sent this to me and I have to ask, is McCain really the kind of man we want as President? Are any of them? When is there going to be a real, good choice of a decent human being to run for the highest office in the country???
NO candidate today is worth a vote, but I guess that one of them will be a little less than worthless and deserving of a vote against everyone else. (and there are still 50 women competing for Miss America...)
Carol McCain
McCain likes to illustrate his moral fiber by referring to his five years as a 
prisoner-of-war in Vietnam . And to demonstrate his commitment to family values, the 71-year-old former US Navy pilot pays warm tribute to his beautiful blonde wife, Cindy, with whom he has four children. But there is another Mrs. McCain who casts a ghostly shadow over the Senator's presidential campaign. She is seldom seen and rarely written about, despite being mother to McCain's three eldest children.
She was the woman McCain dreamed of during his long incarceration and torture in Vietnam 's infamous 'Hanoi Hilton' prison and the woman who faithfully stayed at home looking after the children and waiting anxiously for news. But when McCain returned to America in 1973 to a fanfare of publicity and a handshake from Richard Nixon, he discovered his wife had been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier. Her car had skidded on icy roads into a telegraph pole on Christmas Eve, 1969. Her pelvis and one arm were shattered by the impact and she suffered massive internal injuries.
When Carol was discharged from hospital after six months of life-saving surgery, the prognosis was bleak. In order to save her legs, surgeons had been forced to cut away huge sections of shattered bone, taking with it her tall, willowy figure. She was confined to a wheelchair and was forced to use a catheter. Today, she stands at just 5' 4" and still walks awkwardly, with a pronounced limp. Her body is held together by screws and metal plates and, at 70, her face is worn by wrinkles that speak of decades of silent suffering.
For nearly 30 years, Carol has maintained a dignified silence about the accident, McCain and their divorce. But last week at the bungalow where she now lives at Virginia Beach, a faded seaside resort 200 miles south of Washington, she told The Mail on Sunday how McCain divorced her in 1980 and married Cindy, 18 years his junior and the heir to an Arizona brewing fortune, just one month later.
My marriage ended because John McCain didn't want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens...it just does.' In 1979 - while still married to Carol - he met Cindy at a cocktail party in Hawaii . Over the next six months he pursued her, flying around the country to see her. Then he began to push to end his marriage. Some of McCain's acquaintances are less forgiving, however. They portray the politician as a self-centered womanizer who effectively abandoned his crippled wife to 'play the field'. They accuse him of finally settling on Cindy, a former rodeo beauty queen, for financial reasons. Ted Sampley, who fought with US Special Forces in Vietnam and is now a leading campaigner for veterans' rights, said: 'I have been following John McCain's career for nearly 20 years. I know him personally. There is something wrong with this guy and let me tell you what it is: deceit. When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it. Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better."
McCain is the classic opportunist. He's always reaching for attention and glory,' he said. After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona . And the rest is history.'
Ross Perot, a billionaire Texas businessman, and a former presidential candidate, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel - even by the standards of modern politics.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Hi Bitsy. I wasn't going to respond to this but with Mr. Obama's comments about "lipstick on a pig" I find myself having to take a position in this race. Now, I was NEVER EVER going to vote for Obama, and have never been a McCain supporter (McCain is way too liberal for my tastes). The thing I find very concerning about Mr. Obama even being in the Presidential race at this point is his affiliation with so many anti American individuals. For example, his friendship with someone who not only bombed the Pentagon, but to this day is unrepentant about this act, and actually is on record as saying that the 9-11 bombers did not kill enough Americans. Also, his 20 year relationship with a pastor who used his pulpit to spew his message of hate and racial radicalism, instead of love and tolerance as Jesus would have had him espouse. Another example, Mr. Obama's admiration of the man whom he has called a mentor, a man whose teachings prove his socialists tendencies. This last point, when taken in tandem with Mr. Obama's promise to raise taxes and increase the size of government, can only prove his own socialists tendencies. I think the choice for the President that could lead us in the most American, most positive way is VERY clear, especially in the light cast by the woman who would be the first female Vice President, the conservative Sarah Palin.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
OK. I am swamped at the moment but have to jump in as well with a few thoughts.
First, I am encouraged that this election has so many folks interested in politics and watching what is being represented on both sides (see, a positive statement). With that being said, I'd like to ask that everyone consider the source of what they hear on all the candidates. There is a lot being made up out there and you owe it to yourself to filter the truth from the fiction on both sides. A lot of what Danny points out about Obama is fiction (and please, those of you who still think he's Muslim get with the program: (1) the whole preacher issue shows he's a Christian; and (2) even if he was a Muslim which he's not they really aren't all evil and it would be pretty sad or someone to vote on a presidential candidate on a racist basis but hey, this is America and you can be racist if you'd like; I just won't like you).
So back to my point, examples of false accusations in this campaign: we'd heard on Bill Maher that Sarah Palin's daughter's baby daddy (I can't remember his name) had his own MySpace page on which he refers to himself as a redneck and a huge party guy and says all sorts of horrible things. If you don't like Sarah Palin (which I don't) you might say, "hey! I knew it." But if you actually look at the page - and as of a few nights ago there were 6 purportedly belonging to this same guy - it is clearly made up and made up very recently. Now MySpace can figure out how to police itself with folks making up fake accounts for someone who they are not but this proves my point. The page is fake and we have no idea whether or not the baby daddy is a good guy, a bad guy or otherwise. None of us really know these people. So how to vote?
I have met Barack Obama and have met and worked with a very good friend of his, Deval Patrick, the Governor of Massachusetts (before he was in politics we worked in the same law office in 1992; some exchanges we have had make me pretty certain he is a man of integrity). I know others who know Barack Obama and can speak to his character. If you don't actually have that kind of close connection to a candidate, please consider the sources and then make your best call and please vote.
Stand up for what you believe in on your issues. My biggest issue is how America has fallen in the world view and how more than ever we are thoroughly hated abroad because of the country's attitude as a whole about itself. History shows that with such a prideful view of yourself, your country is going downhill in the worldwide power struggle that has been going on since the dawn of time. My cousin was killed last week in Afghanistan. Granted, he was a British and not an American soldier but he had been an American soldier. How many of our family members have to die as America's image gets worse?? I don't care if John McCain (the subject of the original message below) divorced his wife and is evil, will be the next saint, has sex in the Oval office or what. So much of that is irrelevant to the job they can do and John McCain will not get my vote if he is so bold as to think America needs to fix a situation that’s been broken for over 1000 years for reasons most Americans and most policy makers do not understand or even care about (I majored in medieval history in college so please talk to me if you have any doubts about the history that has been ignored) and stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for another 100 years.
Since we are all really interested in this election, let's all take this seriously and be a part of trying to make the changes we all want. Thanks for listening to my rant.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "DANNY DUKE"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, the problem is the words actually came out of the pastors mouth, and were recorded by the church to broadcast in sermon form. Now, I believe that fact is going to be hard to deny. Also, it is typical as a deflection technique to bring up Mrs Palin's family to take the attention off the real issue, Obama's qualifications to be president. Remember, Obama hasn't talked about his qualifications, since the very qualifications he would talk about would only reinforce his associations with the very people he has been distancing himself from. As for the world view, I could care less, I don't see this as a chip on my shoulder. I see it as a burden that we as Americans have to bear, not because of some perceived social status in the world, but because of the men who signed that Document in 1776 to liberate this great nation from the monarchy that was England (see the rest of the world). It is a burden because of every American who, like your cousin, have given their lives so that we may live in the freest nation the world has ever seen. It is my Patriotic duty and the least I can do for the young man by the last name “Duke” who died when a bomb from a Japanese dive bomber struck the magazine on the USS Arizona on that fateful December morning. I see it as my duty so as to not desecrate their memory and sacrifice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "MARISSA ADAMS"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
NO candidate today is worth a vote, but I guess that one of them will be a little less than worthless and deserving of a vote against everyone else. (and there are still 50 women competing for Miss America...)
prisoner-of-war in Vietnam . And to demonstrate his commitment to family values, the 71-year-old former US Navy pilot pays warm tribute to his beautiful blonde wife, Cindy, with whom he has four children. But there is another Mrs. McCain who casts a ghostly shadow over the Senator's presidential campaign. She is seldom seen and rarely written about, despite being mother to McCain's three eldest children.In 1979 - while still married to Carol - he met Cindy at a cocktail party in Hawaii . Over the next six months he pursued her, flying around the country to see her. Then he began to push to end his marriage. Some of McCain's acquaintances are less forgiving, however. They portray the politician as a self-centered womanizer who effectively abandoned his crippled wife to 'play the field'. They accuse him of finally settling on Cindy, a former rodeo beauty queen, for financial reasons. Ted Sampley, who fought with US Special Forces in Vietnam and is now a leading campaigner for veterans' rights, said: 'I have been following John McCain's career for nearly 20 years. I know him personally. There is something wrong with this guy and let me tell you what it is: deceit. When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it. Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better."
McCain is the classic opportunist. He's always reaching for attention and glory,' he said. After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona . And the rest is history.'
Ross Perot, a billionaire Texas businessman, and a former presidential candidate, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel - even by the standards of modern politics.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Hi Bitsy. I wasn't going to respond to this but with Mr. Obama's comments about "lipstick on a pig" I find myself having to take a position in this race. Now, I was NEVER EVER going to vote for Obama, and have never been a McCain supporter (McCain is way too liberal for my tastes). The thing I find very concerning about Mr. Obama even being in the Presidential race at this point is his affiliation with so many anti American individuals. For example, his friendship with someone who not only bombed the Pentagon, but to this day is unrepentant about this act, and actually is on record as saying that the 9-11 bombers did not kill enough Americans. Also, his 20 year relationship with a pastor who used his pulpit to spew his message of hate and racial radicalism, instead of love and tolerance as Jesus would have had him espouse. Another example, Mr. Obama's admiration of the man whom he has called a mentor, a man whose teachings prove his socialists tendencies. This last point, when taken in tandem with Mr. Obama's promise to raise taxes and increase the size of government, can only prove his own socialists tendencies. I think the choice for the President that could lead us in the most American, most positive way is VERY clear, especially in the light cast by the woman who would be the first female Vice President, the conservative Sarah Palin.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
OK. I am swamped at the moment but have to jump in as well with a few thoughts.
First, I am encouraged that this election has so many folks interested in politics and watching what is being represented on both sides (see, a positive statement). With that being said, I'd like to ask that everyone consider the source of what they hear on all the candidates. There is a lot being made up out there and you owe it to yourself to filter the truth from the fiction on both sides. A lot of what Danny points out about Obama is fiction (and please, those of you who still think he's Muslim get with the program: (1) the whole preacher issue shows he's a Christian; and (2) even if he was a Muslim which he's not they really aren't all evil and it would be pretty sad or someone to vote on a presidential candidate on a racist basis but hey, this is America and you can be racist if you'd like; I just won't like you).
So back to my point, examples of false accusations in this campaign: we'd heard on Bill Maher that Sarah Palin's daughter's baby daddy (I can't remember his name) had his own MySpace page on which he refers to himself as a redneck and a huge party guy and says all sorts of horrible things. If you don't like Sarah Palin (which I don't) you might say, "hey! I knew it." But if you actually look at the page - and as of a few nights ago there were 6 purportedly belonging to this same guy - it is clearly made up and made up very recently. Now MySpace can figure out how to police itself with folks making up fake accounts for someone who they are not but this proves my point. The page is fake and we have no idea whether or not the baby daddy is a good guy, a bad guy or otherwise. None of us really know these people. So how to vote?
I have met Barack Obama and have met and worked with a very good friend of his, Deval Patrick, the Governor of Massachusetts (before he was in politics we worked in the same law office in 1992; some exchanges we have had make me pretty certain he is a man of integrity). I know others who know Barack Obama and can speak to his character. If you don't actually have that kind of close connection to a candidate, please consider the sources and then make your best call and please vote.
Stand up for what you believe in on your issues. My biggest issue is how America has fallen in the world view and how more than ever we are thoroughly hated abroad because of the country's attitude as a whole about itself. History shows that with such a prideful view of yourself, your country is going downhill in the worldwide power struggle that has been going on since the dawn of time. My cousin was killed last week in Afghanistan. Granted, he was a British and not an American soldier but he had been an American soldier. How many of our family members have to die as America's image gets worse?? I don't care if John McCain (the subject of the original message below) divorced his wife and is evil, will be the next saint, has sex in the Oval office or what. So much of that is irrelevant to the job they can do and John McCain will not get my vote if he is so bold as to think America needs to fix a situation that’s been broken for over 1000 years for reasons most Americans and most policy makers do not understand or even care about (I majored in medieval history in college so please talk to me if you have any doubts about the history that has been ignored) and stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for another 100 years.
Since we are all really interested in this election, let's all take this seriously and be a part of trying to make the changes we all want. Thanks for listening to my rant.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "DANNY DUKE"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, the problem is the words actually came out of the pastors mouth, and were recorded by the church to broadcast in sermon form. Now, I believe that fact is going to be hard to deny. Also, it is typical as a deflection technique to bring up Mrs Palin's family to take the attention off the real issue, Obama's qualifications to be president. Remember, Obama hasn't talked about his qualifications, since the very qualifications he would talk about would only reinforce his associations with the very people he has been distancing himself from. As for the world view, I could care less, I don't see this as a chip on my shoulder. I see it as a burden that we as Americans have to bear, not because of some perceived social status in the world, but because of the men who signed that Document in 1776 to liberate this great nation from the monarchy that was England (see the rest of the world). It is a burden because of every American who, like your cousin, have given their lives so that we may live in the freest nation the world has ever seen. It is my Patriotic duty and the least I can do for the young man by the last name “Duke” who died when a bomb from a Japanese dive bomber struck the magazine on the USS Arizona on that fateful December morning. I see it as my duty so as to not desecrate their memory and sacrifice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "MARISSA ADAMS"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
When he came home and saw that Carol was not the beauty he left behind, he started running around on her almost right away. Everybody around him knew it. Eventually he met Cindy and she was young and beautiful and very wealthy. At that point McCain just dumped Carol for something he thought was better."
McCain is the classic opportunist. He's always reaching for attention and glory,' he said. After he came home, Carol walked with a limp. So he threw her over for a poster girl with big money from Arizona . And the rest is history.'
Ross Perot, a billionaire Texas businessman, and a former presidential candidate, who paid her medical bills all those years ago, now believes that both Carol McCain and the American people have been taken in by a man who is unusually slick and cruel - even by the standards of modern politics.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Hi Bitsy. I wasn't going to respond to this but with Mr. Obama's comments about "lipstick on a pig" I find myself having to take a position in this race. Now, I was NEVER EVER going to vote for Obama, and have never been a McCain supporter (McCain is way too liberal for my tastes). The thing I find very concerning about Mr. Obama even being in the Presidential race at this point is his affiliation with so many anti American individuals. For example, his friendship with someone who not only bombed the Pentagon, but to this day is unrepentant about this act, and actually is on record as saying that the 9-11 bombers did not kill enough Americans. Also, his 20 year relationship with a pastor who used his pulpit to spew his message of hate and racial radicalism, instead of love and tolerance as Jesus would have had him espouse. Another example, Mr. Obama's admiration of the man whom he has called a mentor, a man whose teachings prove his socialists tendencies. This last point, when taken in tandem with Mr. Obama's promise to raise taxes and increase the size of government, can only prove his own socialists tendencies. I think the choice for the President that could lead us in the most American, most positive way is VERY clear, especially in the light cast by the woman who would be the first female Vice President, the conservative Sarah Palin.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
OK. I am swamped at the moment but have to jump in as well with a few thoughts.
First, I am encouraged that this election has so many folks interested in politics and watching what is being represented on both sides (see, a positive statement). With that being said, I'd like to ask that everyone consider the source of what they hear on all the candidates. There is a lot being made up out there and you owe it to yourself to filter the truth from the fiction on both sides. A lot of what Danny points out about Obama is fiction (and please, those of you who still think he's Muslim get with the program: (1) the whole preacher issue shows he's a Christian; and (2) even if he was a Muslim which he's not they really aren't all evil and it would be pretty sad or someone to vote on a presidential candidate on a racist basis but hey, this is America and you can be racist if you'd like; I just won't like you).
So back to my point, examples of false accusations in this campaign: we'd heard on Bill Maher that Sarah Palin's daughter's baby daddy (I can't remember his name) had his own MySpace page on which he refers to himself as a redneck and a huge party guy and says all sorts of horrible things. If you don't like Sarah Palin (which I don't) you might say, "hey! I knew it." But if you actually look at the page - and as of a few nights ago there were 6 purportedly belonging to this same guy - it is clearly made up and made up very recently. Now MySpace can figure out how to police itself with folks making up fake accounts for someone who they are not but this proves my point. The page is fake and we have no idea whether or not the baby daddy is a good guy, a bad guy or otherwise. None of us really know these people. So how to vote?
I have met Barack Obama and have met and worked with a very good friend of his, Deval Patrick, the Governor of Massachusetts (before he was in politics we worked in the same law office in 1992; some exchanges we have had make me pretty certain he is a man of integrity). I know others who know Barack Obama and can speak to his character. If you don't actually have that kind of close connection to a candidate, please consider the sources and then make your best call and please vote.
Stand up for what you believe in on your issues. My biggest issue is how America has fallen in the world view and how more than ever we are thoroughly hated abroad because of the country's attitude as a whole about itself. History shows that with such a prideful view of yourself, your country is going downhill in the worldwide power struggle that has been going on since the dawn of time. My cousin was killed last week in Afghanistan. Granted, he was a British and not an American soldier but he had been an American soldier. How many of our family members have to die as America's image gets worse?? I don't care if John McCain (the subject of the original message below) divorced his wife and is evil, will be the next saint, has sex in the Oval office or what. So much of that is irrelevant to the job they can do and John McCain will not get my vote if he is so bold as to think America needs to fix a situation that’s been broken for over 1000 years for reasons most Americans and most policy makers do not understand or even care about (I majored in medieval history in college so please talk to me if you have any doubts about the history that has been ignored) and stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for another 100 years.
Since we are all really interested in this election, let's all take this seriously and be a part of trying to make the changes we all want. Thanks for listening to my rant.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "DANNY DUKE"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, the problem is the words actually came out of the pastors mouth, and were recorded by the church to broadcast in sermon form. Now, I believe that fact is going to be hard to deny. Also, it is typical as a deflection technique to bring up Mrs Palin's family to take the attention off the real issue, Obama's qualifications to be president. Remember, Obama hasn't talked about his qualifications, since the very qualifications he would talk about would only reinforce his associations with the very people he has been distancing himself from. As for the world view, I could care less, I don't see this as a chip on my shoulder. I see it as a burden that we as Americans have to bear, not because of some perceived social status in the world, but because of the men who signed that Document in 1776 to liberate this great nation from the monarchy that was England (see the rest of the world). It is a burden because of every American who, like your cousin, have given their lives so that we may live in the freest nation the world has ever seen. It is my Patriotic duty and the least I can do for the young man by the last name “Duke” who died when a bomb from a Japanese dive bomber struck the magazine on the USS Arizona on that fateful December morning. I see it as my duty so as to not desecrate their memory and sacrifice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "MARISSA ADAMS"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
______________________________________________________________________________
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Hi Bitsy. I wasn't going to respond to this but with Mr. Obama's comments about "lipstick on a pig" I find myself having to take a position in this race. Now, I was NEVER EVER going to vote for Obama, and have never been a McCain supporter (McCain is way too liberal for my tastes). The thing I find very concerning about Mr. Obama even being in the Presidential race at this point is his affiliation with so many anti American individuals. For example, his friendship with someone who not only bombed the Pentagon, but to this day is unrepentant about this act, and actually is on record as saying that the 9-11 bombers did not kill enough Americans. Also, his 20 year relationship with a pastor who used his pulpit to spew his message of hate and racial radicalism, instead of love and tolerance as Jesus would have had him espouse. Another example, Mr. Obama's admiration of the man whom he has called a mentor, a man whose teachings prove his socialists tendencies. This last point, when taken in tandem with Mr. Obama's promise to raise taxes and increase the size of government, can only prove his own socialists tendencies. I think the choice for the President that could lead us in the most American, most positive way is VERY clear, especially in the light cast by the woman who would be the first female Vice President, the conservative Sarah Palin.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
OK. I am swamped at the moment but have to jump in as well with a few thoughts.
First, I am encouraged that this election has so many folks interested in politics and watching what is being represented on both sides (see, a positive statement). With that being said, I'd like to ask that everyone consider the source of what they hear on all the candidates. There is a lot being made up out there and you owe it to yourself to filter the truth from the fiction on both sides. A lot of what Danny points out about Obama is fiction (and please, those of you who still think he's Muslim get with the program: (1) the whole preacher issue shows he's a Christian; and (2) even if he was a Muslim which he's not they really aren't all evil and it would be pretty sad or someone to vote on a presidential candidate on a racist basis but hey, this is America and you can be racist if you'd like; I just won't like you).
So back to my point, examples of false accusations in this campaign: we'd heard on Bill Maher that Sarah Palin's daughter's baby daddy (I can't remember his name) had his own MySpace page on which he refers to himself as a redneck and a huge party guy and says all sorts of horrible things. If you don't like Sarah Palin (which I don't) you might say, "hey! I knew it." But if you actually look at the page - and as of a few nights ago there were 6 purportedly belonging to this same guy - it is clearly made up and made up very recently. Now MySpace can figure out how to police itself with folks making up fake accounts for someone who they are not but this proves my point. The page is fake and we have no idea whether or not the baby daddy is a good guy, a bad guy or otherwise. None of us really know these people. So how to vote?
I have met Barack Obama and have met and worked with a very good friend of his, Deval Patrick, the Governor of Massachusetts (before he was in politics we worked in the same law office in 1992; some exchanges we have had make me pretty certain he is a man of integrity). I know others who know Barack Obama and can speak to his character. If you don't actually have that kind of close connection to a candidate, please consider the sources and then make your best call and please vote.
Stand up for what you believe in on your issues. My biggest issue is how America has fallen in the world view and how more than ever we are thoroughly hated abroad because of the country's attitude as a whole about itself. History shows that with such a prideful view of yourself, your country is going downhill in the worldwide power struggle that has been going on since the dawn of time. My cousin was killed last week in Afghanistan. Granted, he was a British and not an American soldier but he had been an American soldier. How many of our family members have to die as America's image gets worse?? I don't care if John McCain (the subject of the original message below) divorced his wife and is evil, will be the next saint, has sex in the Oval office or what. So much of that is irrelevant to the job they can do and John McCain will not get my vote if he is so bold as to think America needs to fix a situation that’s been broken for over 1000 years for reasons most Americans and most policy makers do not understand or even care about (I majored in medieval history in college so please talk to me if you have any doubts about the history that has been ignored) and stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for another 100 years.
Since we are all really interested in this election, let's all take this seriously and be a part of trying to make the changes we all want. Thanks for listening to my rant.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "DANNY DUKE"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, the problem is the words actually came out of the pastors mouth, and were recorded by the church to broadcast in sermon form. Now, I believe that fact is going to be hard to deny. Also, it is typical as a deflection technique to bring up Mrs Palin's family to take the attention off the real issue, Obama's qualifications to be president. Remember, Obama hasn't talked about his qualifications, since the very qualifications he would talk about would only reinforce his associations with the very people he has been distancing himself from. As for the world view, I could care less, I don't see this as a chip on my shoulder. I see it as a burden that we as Americans have to bear, not because of some perceived social status in the world, but because of the men who signed that Document in 1776 to liberate this great nation from the monarchy that was England (see the rest of the world). It is a burden because of every American who, like your cousin, have given their lives so that we may live in the freest nation the world has ever seen. It is my Patriotic duty and the least I can do for the young man by the last name “Duke” who died when a bomb from a Japanese dive bomber struck the magazine on the USS Arizona on that fateful December morning. I see it as my duty so as to not desecrate their memory and sacrifice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "MARISSA ADAMS"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
OK. I am swamped at the moment but have to jump in as well with a few thoughts.
First, I am encouraged that this election has so many folks interested in politics and watching what is being represented on both sides (see, a positive statement). With that being said, I'd like to ask that everyone consider the source of what they hear on all the candidates. There is a lot being made up out there and you owe it to yourself to filter the truth from the fiction on both sides. A lot of what Danny points out about Obama is fiction (and please, those of you who still think he's Muslim get with the program: (1) the whole preacher issue shows he's a Christian; and (2) even if he was a Muslim which he's not they really aren't all evil and it would be pretty sad or someone to vote on a presidential candidate on a racist basis but hey, this is America and you can be racist if you'd like; I just won't like you).
So back to my point, examples of false accusations in this campaign: we'd heard on Bill Maher that Sarah Palin's daughter's baby daddy (I can't remember his name) had his own MySpace page on which he refers to himself as a redneck and a huge party guy and says all sorts of horrible things. If you don't like Sarah Palin (which I don't) you might say, "hey! I knew it." But if you actually look at the page - and as of a few nights ago there were 6 purportedly belonging to this same guy - it is clearly made up and made up very recently. Now MySpace can figure out how to police itself with folks making up fake accounts for someone who they are not but this proves my point. The page is fake and we have no idea whether or not the baby daddy is a good guy, a bad guy or otherwise. None of us really know these people. So how to vote?
I have met Barack Obama and have met and worked with a very good friend of his, Deval Patrick, the Governor of Massachusetts (before he was in politics we worked in the same law office in 1992; some exchanges we have had make me pretty certain he is a man of integrity). I know others who know Barack Obama and can speak to his character. If you don't actually have that kind of close connection to a candidate, please consider the sources and then make your best call and please vote.
Stand up for what you believe in on your issues. My biggest issue is how America has fallen in the world view and how more than ever we are thoroughly hated abroad because of the country's attitude as a whole about itself. History shows that with such a prideful view of yourself, your country is going downhill in the worldwide power struggle that has been going on since the dawn of time. My cousin was killed last week in Afghanistan. Granted, he was a British and not an American soldier but he had been an American soldier. How many of our family members have to die as America's image gets worse?? I don't care if John McCain (the subject of the original message below) divorced his wife and is evil, will be the next saint, has sex in the Oval office or what. So much of that is irrelevant to the job they can do and John McCain will not get my vote if he is so bold as to think America needs to fix a situation that’s been broken for over 1000 years for reasons most Americans and most policy makers do not understand or even care about (I majored in medieval history in college so please talk to me if you have any doubts about the history that has been ignored) and stay in Iraq and Afghanistan for another 100 years.
Since we are all really interested in this election, let's all take this seriously and be a part of trying to make the changes we all want. Thanks for listening to my rant.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "DANNY DUKE"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, the problem is the words actually came out of the pastors mouth, and were recorded by the church to broadcast in sermon form. Now, I believe that fact is going to be hard to deny. Also, it is typical as a deflection technique to bring up Mrs Palin's family to take the attention off the real issue, Obama's qualifications to be president. Remember, Obama hasn't talked about his qualifications, since the very qualifications he would talk about would only reinforce his associations with the very people he has been distancing himself from. As for the world view, I could care less, I don't see this as a chip on my shoulder. I see it as a burden that we as Americans have to bear, not because of some perceived social status in the world, but because of the men who signed that Document in 1776 to liberate this great nation from the monarchy that was England (see the rest of the world). It is a burden because of every American who, like your cousin, have given their lives so that we may live in the freest nation the world has ever seen. It is my Patriotic duty and the least I can do for the young man by the last name “Duke” who died when a bomb from a Japanese dive bomber struck the magazine on the USS Arizona on that fateful December morning. I see it as my duty so as to not desecrate their memory and sacrifice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "MARISSA ADAMS"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, the problem is the words actually came out of the pastors mouth, and were recorded by the church to broadcast in sermon form. Now, I believe that fact is going to be hard to deny. Also, it is typical as a deflection technique to bring up Mrs Palin's family to take the attention off the real issue, Obama's qualifications to be president. Remember, Obama hasn't talked about his qualifications, since the very qualifications he would talk about would only reinforce his associations with the very people he has been distancing himself from. As for the world view, I could care less, I don't see this as a chip on my shoulder. I see it as a burden that we as Americans have to bear, not because of some perceived social status in the world, but because of the men who signed that Document in 1776 to liberate this great nation from the monarchy that was England (see the rest of the world). It is a burden because of every American who, like your cousin, have given their lives so that we may live in the freest nation the world has ever seen. It is my Patriotic duty and the least I can do for the young man by the last name “Duke” who died when a bomb from a Japanese dive bomber struck the magazine on the USS Arizona on that fateful December morning. I see it as my duty so as to not desecrate their memory and sacrifice.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: "MARISSA ADAMS"
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Wow! So it's not ok to attack Sarah Palin's family (which I believe I was not doing but was supporting the fact that one story that is out there is actually NOT true) but it is ok to attack Obama's preacher? Sarah Palin's future son in law is not Sarah Palin. Barack Obama's preacher is not Barack Obama. Attack the candidate factually and with support and knowledge and I can respect you.
Here's an attack. As a mother with a very young son I have no respect for a woman who brings young children on stage at night during a political convention. That would not be good for a "normal" child, i.e. one who has no sensory issues as a child with Down syndrome has (my nephew who resides with me having Down syndrome and I personally having very close contact with what this involves) and it certainly is no better for a child with sensory issues. I don't actually care what comes out of her mouth after seeing that. In no way did that action benefit the child but it sure did let her paint a picture of a good family woman. Most rational folks with babies can see that this was a choice she made for herself, not for her child. Would you bring your young daughter on stage with you to such an event and disrespect her need for sleep and for not being in a crowd like that?
And pick up a history book my friend. The very attitude of ridding the world of evil because YOUR way is better than someone else's? Do you know how Rome fell and how the Crusades led to the Protestant Revolution? A small history lesson in a nutshell. The Roman Empire and the Catholic Church thought their way was the best. They wanted to be beacons of light to the rest of the world who was backwards and not like them. And they fell because it's one thing to be oppressed, it's another thing to be oppressed by a nation or entity that thinks it KNOWS they are better than you. This is actually how the American Revolution came about and please don't tell me you know more about that. I've been studying it for more than 20 years very intensely (ask “Tammy” how mental I am about John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, etc.). The Founding Fathers were not perfect and did not want to be put on a pedestal. They made some very gutsy sacrifices and it is those sacrifices that this country is built upon but that we in fact dishonor when we THINK we KNOW we are better than everyone else. People in China and Afghanistan and Iraq and every other country in the world are trying to get by just as you are and trying to conquer them because you know better? Just pick up a history book.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Marissa, did you make Priscilla take her Bush sticker off her car?
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
Absolutely. I drove her car almost exclusively after she moved in and she drove mine. I usually put a sticker on my car and this time I didn't. She no longer has a car but drives mine while I take the bus. So I didn't get a sticker this year and put it on my car because it would be like he driving a car with a McCain/Palin or Bush sticker. I respect her values, presumably she respects mine but either of us driving around with a sticker (which really is an advertisement of a belief) that doesn't espouse our values is not right. I won't make her follow my beliefs and ride around as if she does and this is why she removed the sticker. She had no problem with it because in our disagreements we discuss them like adults. Your question isn't exactly a response to my email but I'm happy to answer it.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “DANNY DUKE”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I only opened your response today and only read part of the first paragraph when I was struck by the account of how “Priscilla” had to take the Bush sticker off her car when she got to Boston. I must say I was not disappointed by your response, though. Yes, it was everything I thought it would be, and more. Your condescending attitude toward me, bragging about your knowledge of our founding fathers. Your telling me to pick up a history book. Your giving me a small history lesson on the crusades and the Catholic Church. Yes, you fit very nicely with Michelle and Barak. I bet you see me as one of those middle class people that clings to their guns and religion.
______________________________________________________________________________
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
FROM: “MARISSA ADAMS”
SUBJECT: FW: CAROL McCAIN (FORMER MRS. JOHN McCAIN)
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself.
I am sorry you still don't understand the ideas here. No one was forced to remove a bumper sticker, we agreed to remove them when we traded cars. I am also sorry that when faced with the point of view of an educated person you can only give a non-response. I won't apologize for it nor do I carry it like a chip on my shoulder, it is who I am and has helped me form my world view. I have no idea about your religion or gun ownership. When you have something of substance to say feel free to contact me and we can discuss our opposing views. But until then please keep your empty rhetoric to yourself. |
As an avid Knicks fan I remember when I first heard that Latrell Sprewell had wrapped his hands around P.J. Carlesimo's throat after a disagreement during practice. All the basketball fans I knew thought it was an outrage and I agreed with the general consensus that Sprewell was a thug who should be thrown out of the league. 
